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The Current and Future State of Tamer and Why It Need's To Be Addressed

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Molleh, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    problem being tamer is in the same boat as awakened lahn. its kit is really really really good for 1v1. its actually balanced for it not to be a blob class also.
     
  2. Molleh

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    This is accurate to a degree - but the divide should never exist. Nothing should be obsolete in one aspect of the game - it's like people asking for shai to not be able to grind because she excels at life skilling. The class system in this MMO has no room for being divided into "1v1 class, PvE class, Large scale class" as there is no indication for that - the same reason we don't have dedicated healers or tanks it's just not how the class system is designed. Perhaps this is the fundamental issue with the way class balance works in BDO.

    On that note however; may we talk about Wizard Succession and how it's perhaps one of the best 1v1 classes at the current time along with being extremely strong in large scale, it's called balance for a reason, perhaps the whole class system needs to be redrawn and recalculated.

    To conclude I would like to reiterate that we're not asking to be pushed above all other classes but instead brought up to par with the classes we deem to be the ones we should preform in conjunction with considering roles in large scale. If that means brought down to a lower level in a 1v1 setting then so be-it, I am sure this would be a welcome change. But I don't believe that tamer is so extremely better in a 1v1 setting than a ninja or kuno that we should be pushed down far below them in large scale. Again; nothing should be obsolete in any aspect of the game in a game designed to have no class specifics. (Before you mention it, Shai is an experimental class of which they're not sure to continue making any more in this type of way)
     
  3. LigtZ

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    Even then the fundamental problem is that it is very bad in creating those 1v1s in the first place, the fact is that the class only excels in 1v1s scenarios where the enemy cant run and is forced to fight you is quite the hoops you have to run through when largescale classes get to be good at their job by simply existing and dont need arbitrary limits around them, if tamer is such a great 1v1 class why is the only way we can catch some of the best largescale classes if they decide to tp in to us. The plead in many of the posts isn't to make us op but to give us agency over our decision to fight and not have to rely on generosity of other classes massive errors.
     
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  4. Monkey D.

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    Basically tamer has a strong grab engage, out of that, she depends of how stupid is the one she is fighting against. And that's talking about 1vs1 which is not longer god/top tier due to the last year changes ( succ+pvp balance) In large scale tamer is a 100% bot nerfed.. Or the gunner
     
  5. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    a bit offtopic but succ wiz indeed needs a nerhammer hit.
     
  6. Eoky

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    Please don't let this thread die. The happiness of my future with this class depends on some big changes being made :( -- I mean, I'm still gonna play it, but don't make me hate myself for it. I will be the first to admit that I'm absolute garbage at PvP, but even I'd really like to see a rework of the class. The more noise the Tamer community makes the more attention we'll get, as long as it's constructive. I know you friends have ideas!

    Tamer has so much potential and so many things feel really dated, even non-PvP stuff ... like, what is the +3 hp/sec Heilang buff for? Why should I need a horse if I have a Heilang? What is the purpose of mounted combat? Why can't he wear gear or have an inventory? Why come I don't have more than an "attack" button? I made a whole thread about this that is probably past page 30 by now.

    I hereby summon the power of the GM! Show thy lurker self! <3 </3
     
  7. lanzend

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    You guys really think they're gonna balance this class??? lmao. Think about it. They can't even tweek PvE damage across the board for somewhat even trash clears (within 5% is acceptable), which should be the easiest thing to adjust if they cared. They haven't fixed STUPID OBVIOUS BUGS that have been in the game since launch, like your weapons being put away when you get CC'd or when you come out of V. I'm done with this company tbh. Sorry but great combat system =/= a great game.
     
    #87 lanzend, Jul 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2020
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  8. Molleh

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    It doesn't hurt to try, the entire point of this is to put our complaints and problems onto a visible platform. We often complain about issues between each other but why not channel that energy into a place where there is even the slightest chance we could be heard. I feel it's wrong to complain constantly without even attempt at getting some sort of resolution; so that's what this is. I also despise constant and chronic negativity of which the BDO community seems to be full of, so in an attempt to be better than that I encouraged the posting with an optimistic/hopeful and positive constructive criticism outlook on this thread.
    If you never ask, you never receive, even if asking opens up the tiniest window to receive I'd be happy to take that option. :)
     
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  9. heavencleanse

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    About Heilang, it would be great to make mounting / dismounting more fluid and remove the stamina drain while running / jumping. People bring super-fast hardly ever out of stamina horses to nodewars while Heilang is exhausted after 100m and only moderately useful for scouting.

    But ofc small utility / quality of life changes aren't the most important right now, compared to addressing the issue that tamer is nearly useless in NW and Siege.
     
  10. Eoky

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    I agree that it's far more important to fix the broken things before working on new things, I'm just trying to throw out my own long-term 'wishlist' to help inspire ideas. I feel like if PA and the devs had a clearer picture of what we want they're far more likely to give us some of it, even if it's just a few things here and there. Think of it like stretch goals.:)Honestly, you all would know far better than I what changes need to be made for NW and Siege. I am nub.

    Community complaints are going to more-or-less get ignored, unless it somehow starts to hurt PA's financials, because when it comes down to it, this is a business they're trying to run and those numbers will probably dictate what changes are made, more-so than what the devs actually WANT to do.....with that said....
    I like Molleh's attitude; the best way to make sure that the separation between the business and the player base doesn't become too disconnected is to remind them that we can organize our constructive feedback in a way that they recommended in the first place. If time is money, PA has to understand that our time = our money AND their money, so .. the best way to go about getting the changes we want is to stay calm and take to the forums so that at least the opinions are documented for them. *hint*(searchable evidence of feedback that is presentable to the executives that make these decisions)*hint*
    I have played many games where the publisher eventually disregards and abuses the community entirely because of widespread toxicity; they begin to treat the players purely as revenue -- I don't want that to happen, and it's a real slippery slope! :(

    Remember, friends! The theophany of Heilang is watching you! <3
     

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  11. lanzend

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    Except that Sorc/Ninja/Kuno are better 1v1 classes, AND pretty damn good in group too. Succ Wiz is the BEST overall class in group (large scale down to 2v2) and pretty damn good 1v1 too. Lahn amazing 1v1 in awakening and with the touch of a button, thanks to the new skill save system, pretty damn good in group with succession. I could go on.
     
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  12. lanzend

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    Mathiasruller likes this.
  13. Karma555

    Karma555 Tamer 63 NA

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    The GMs direct us to make a thread in this section of the forums, but their silence is leading me to think that this will never reach the developers at all.

    Can we get a GM or CM to chime in and pass our concerns onto the devs?
     
  14. LeMiau

    LeMiau Tamer 63 NA

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    Still waiting for some sort of response from the GM/CM as well; they all sent us the same copy-paste response to make a forum post so we did...
     
  15. Hijio

    Hijio Shigaeki Tamer 63 EU

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    Keeping this thread updated with my opinion of the class after having played it a lot in pvp (RBF's [with 71 000 kills] mainly and NW's [but I hate the ult-bomb gameplay. Because this is all I have to say about it, I won't talk about NW's]) :

    I won't complain on balance in it-self, since tamer state has changed over the years. I will mainly talk about my feeling while playing it, which can be usefull if reworking the class happens somewhen whithout me knowing about how damage are applied and things like that.

    Tamer has always been frustrating to play. Although it's still the class I enjoy the most since I have a really good feeling with its movements (And Heilang helps me not feeling alone while grinding).

    Through my RBF experience, I experimented some highs and downs, some led me to take a break from the game, but most of them were due to changes on other classes and not due to some changes on the tamer herself. Because of that, I always felt put aside and punished for playing this class.
    I know this can be personal and not overall relevent, but my playstyle on the class was already putting me on disadvantage against classes like wizards before the succession (please don't laugh lol) whereas I was fighting pretty easily ninjas and most of the sorcs.
    The range damage having taken a huge place in PvP, it is just so much difficult now to get closer to a group and try to get even 1 kill.

    I've been keeping track of my kills/RBF ratio for a while.
    Last summer I was at 31.7 average in August and some days I could reach 1k kill per day. It dropped a lot, and even more when succession released (down to 8.9). Learning PvP isn't really an issue and I do enjoy it. So I grinded players a lot untill I got a decent amount of kills per RBF back. I could then reach a constant 25+ kills per RBF. But then I stopped keeping track of my average when the Guardian released and I saw kills were not relevant anymore with her 10 kills per skill (it's a bit exagerated but this is how I felt). I know this can be because of the gear and all that stuff, but I have 289/289/331 and Guardian can just do so much more with so much less at that gear.

    I already felt really squishy before the last PvP changes but even more once the patch released. On top of that as a tamer I don't have the mobility and speed like the ninjas and kunos have. If one focuses and uses its cd's in a intelligent way, I don't think there's a class I can escape from anymore. Fast kills being now out of matters with resonance nerfs (and some others).

    On top of that, I have a dr oriented build because I enjoy the idea of a better front guard management. But now there's just no point using it, since it gets destroyed in one hit by a random skill that comes out of nowhere.

    So my actual feeling about tamer : I feel slow, I feel too squishy (I like the idea of being squishy, but the class would need a better compensation [even before the PvP changes, at equivalent gear, I had to combo hard to kill a Warrior while he just had to use grave digging to kill me...] ), and this makes me feeling punished for having chosen the wrong class when I started the game.

    I'll keep playing the class, because I do not like the others and I have "history" with my character, but I really hope the good ideas given by the more number-expert tamer players will be taken in account if the class gets a rework.
     
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  16. Nubek

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    They dont want you to play it, they want YOU ****ING MONEY so you reroll into their newest class and use reroll coupons and buy weight space once again.
    They do it for a reason and the earlier you acknowledge it the better, go try other games.
     
  17. Hijio

    Hijio Shigaeki Tamer 63 EU

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    Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the game and my class. I just wish it would feel more rewarding to play it since it's an high effort class

    I don't request getting a buff to finally tamer become meta and play BDO in easy mode, I already have a succ ninja alt for that
     
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  18. Eoky

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    Agreed. No easy mode! My perspective is based on cumulative experience -- little bits over a long period of time. I originally wanted to play Tamer because it was higher difficulty and it seemed to have really unique synergy with the Heilang -- Overall, I was disappointed with the limited synergy with Heilang and mildly disappointed with how sluggish some of the combos feel. In the early days, it was very repetitive, mostly bolt/jolt spam..

    If I had to describe what I envisioned Tamer to be, at first, it would probably include a real symbiotic relationship where Heilang moves could be weaved in with my character's combos -- Fast or seamless combat mounting during combos would just add to the utility of Heilang. I want PA and the devs to build a functional Heilang 'player', because to work backwards from that to incorporate the player would really make a lot of sense to me, the player should have total control over their bound companion as though it were part of the class, not a semi-passive pet. The possibilities are endless in that kind of scenario!

    Surely, there are talented and creative folks on the dev team. I don't see why the Tamer class has been designed in this way.
     
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  19. Hijio

    Hijio Shigaeki Tamer 63 EU

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    Exactly. I think they could totally remove Heilang's auto-attack mode. And increase the number of skills that can trigger Heilang (which could also react faster and/or hit faster, to be on an equal burst level as ninjas or kunos are). I personaly already always keep Heilang in follow mode. The two benefits of it would be :
    - an increase of overall damage without having to touch any skill which should fix the lack of damage we can have and the speed of the burst, so more survivability
    - build up a better opinion other players would have of the class : no more whining about "random" cc's. And this would probably let less people say the class is OP even if it's not at all. Maybe the tamer would get more attention from staff then

    But I think just reworking Heilang and adding a passive that could increase the efficiency of tamer's front guard (if people get hit outside of block, I think it should be ok to get os. But you need to be able to protect yourself. It's a must for a tamer that doesn't have the speed of her skirmisher peers) would totally fix the class and make it viable again

    To continue about the front guard, it could be either a passive like stated above or change the rain curtain's dp buff and the Heilang : Berserk's dp buff (which are not at all relevant anymore with current average ap people have in PvP nowadays) into a front guard efficiency multiplier (could be respectively +200% and +400%, for exemple, but I don't really know about numbers). Making possible to stack up both buffs would also be a great idea (but perhaps it would be too OP, I don't know). It's a magic shield, after all

    Maybe increase tamer movement speed while using evasion ww by the half of the speed buff you get from Heilang : Absorption (and of course decrease the Heilang : Absorption's movement speed buff by half) would also be necessary for the tamer to full-fill her assassin role
    But again I'm afraid it would be too OP. It's just that the only moment I'm really having fun with tamer in PvP is when I get the absorb's speed buff
     
    #99 Hijio, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  20. Hijio

    Hijio Shigaeki Tamer 63 EU

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    I just hope all of this is going to be read by some staff member and will help the devs to not having to bother finding a solution with all those damage multiplier, number of hits and accuracy adjustement that could make a too powerful change to the class
    If they ever try to rework it.

    But they should.
    Tamers are known for buying every single outfits from cash shop uwu
     
    #100 Hijio, Jul 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020

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