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The Developer's Self-Made Problem: Silver & Other Bottlenecks

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Belle Atwell, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Belle Atwell

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    This person has a fair grasp of what's killing MMOs.


    I genuinely love BDO. I have always said this is my first and last MMO.

    Even so, it has always had some problems.

    It had been:
    - 86 days since one guildie quit because they hit the Enhancement Barrier and could not get their gear to move to 210 AP.
    - It has been 52 days another guildie left for the same reason.
    - It has been 10 days since still another guildie who joined at the same time as his friend left because he can't progress at the same pace as his friend.
    - It has been 7 days since one of our officers quit because, as he said to me today elsewhere, "I don't think I'll be returning to BDO if all there is is grind."

    This is why I keep complaining about not being able to GROUP TOGETHER
    - It has been three years
    - You keep deleting this possibilities.
    - I have not yet been wrong
    - Whoever is your design manager that things that separating friends from friends by random enhancement divides is a good plan needs a firm sit down and discussion because it isn't fun.
    When people are grouping with their FRIENDS through the GRIND the satisfaction with the tedium goes up exponentially.

    However, there is a larger problem now.

    Bottlenecks.

    As developers you do not seem to understand that you have TOO MUCH
    artificially bottlenecked things to either Energy or Silver.

    Lately your reasons for doing this are nakedly that of $$$$$$$$.

    This is typical of Korean MMOs and we expect this of you. The demon has your hearts and you are sensely greedy from time to time. Sometimes the demon doesn't just grab your heart, but eats it entirely. That's when a company becomes NCSoft.
    - so far you've done a good job of avoiding this and lots of credit can be given to you for reworking the Pearl Shop to avoid just that situation.
    - further, you still respect our Holidays, have GM events in person, and don't dump politics into the game: Other than the recent Charity event >_>
    So, as far things go in the game we mostly like you.

    Yet, currently you're heading back towards that Korean MMO tendency of grabby for every penny in sight.

    Recently this took the shape of:
    - Nerfing the heck out of all things silver
    - Making it even harder to group with friends
    - Nerfing the heck out of our ability to find Cron Stones from actually PLAYING the game without...
    ...
    ... wait for it....
    ...
    ... using Silver or $$$$$$$$

    While I have no issues with you making money and keeping the lights on for the game's servers, I take serious issue with gauging out ALL forms of PLAY from a GAME.

    Which is exactly what you've done.

    ____________

    Now let's talk about why you did this.

    The most obvious reason is $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

    However, if you'd stop listening to the demon for a moment you'd maybe notice the raging mob in Calpheon right now looks a lot like your player base.

    Many months ago I said that you should make some rewards in the game that have to do with RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES!!!

    See, you keep making the same few sloppy creature encounters.

    You have Pila Ku Jail, THE LARGEST DUNGEON IN THE GAME, ...solo.

    What are you thinking?? Just how much geographical space can you waste?
    - My guildies and I used to go in their with deliberately weak gear just so we'd have somewhere challenging to grind together with nearly equal DP/AP so your idiotic loot system would screw over someone for spending the same amount of time and participation as everyone else.

    Thus, we come back to why you did this... $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    You have mismanaged the "Create a problem so that people will $$$$$ for the Pearls to fix it."

    ____________

    What you could do about this:

    Well, I don't know what your financial situations are so I can't throw out the "this is the solution" sort of post.

    But, I can genuinely say you've killed off most of GAMEPLAY.

    __________

    I think where the problem lies:

    ... is to do with a general confusion you have between REWARDS, META, and ACCELERATION.

    If I want a TET Blackstar (my current goal) I first factor my current blackstar's value.
    Current BS Value: 2.830 billion silver
    Future BS Value: 13.900 billion silver
    My daily earnings: 100 million silver.

    I then divide 2.830 billion silver by 100 million silver to get 28.3 days.
    Next, I divide 13.900 billion silver by 100 million silver to get 139 days.
    Finally, I subtract 139 days by 28.3 days to get 110.7 days.

    Thus, I have 110.7 days to arrive at the TET given my current conditions.

    For 110.7 days you expect me to do EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
    - this is why people quit the game

    And then you go and NERF the income.

    See, you are confused....

    To the point it seems like maliciousness.


    Players came here to GAME.

    ______

    Your model for how to design the game has retarded to typical Korean MMO experience we have all come to expect:

    1. Kakao needs $$$$$$
    2. you break something
    3. you pipe us to that broken something
    4. then you ask for $$$$$$

    Meanwhile,
    You ask us [to play 110.7 days of the same stupid (unintelligent, brain dead, moronic) creatures with their feckless AI and unfair rewards] because [you can't figure out how to disassociate in-game rewards from Silver without also disassociating Silver from $$$$$$] or [forcing you into over-hasty development cycle].

    The last, I appreciate. It is why I fully support the Enhancement system no matter how much I complain about your stupidity with the menu system behind it. You could easily make more money making that system Not-a-Pile-of-Garbage.
    Unfortunately, this would require that your Korean instincts be directed away from your tunnel vision for the $$$$$$.
    As demonstrated by the numerous and persistent failures of the many Korean MMOs... it is very hard to get a Korean designer to not tunnel-vision for that $$$$$$$.

    However, for every 28 days I had to spend grinding TO the Blackstar (which was really much longer than that - 3 months to be exact due to the lower income bracket I was in before) the next 110.7 days STILL HAS ME GRINDING SOLO IN THE SAME WORTHLESS CRAP AS THE LAST THREE YEARS!!!!!!!

    And you know what? By the time I get the stupid thing my friends will have moved on from grinding the existent places.

    Meanwhile, Part II
    1. [to play 110.7 days of the same stupid (unintelligent, brain dead, moronic) creatures with their feckless AI and unfair rewards]
    2. [you can't figure out how to disassociate in-game rewards from Silver without also disassociating Silver from $$$$$$]

    Issue 1
    New players have at least ONE YEAR they must play to catch up with TET~PEN players
    You DEMAND ALL OF THIS MUST BE DONE SOLO
    BECAUSE YOU DESIGNED IT THIS WAY

    Are you stupid?
    - this isn't a fault of the hardware. it's possibly a fault of your wetware, but I'm not judging yet.
    - Do you seriously imagine your feckless idiot AI is engaging?
    - Do you seriously think that blowing up every creature with one-shots is rewarding?
    Then you punish us for grouping with two people.
    - less or no loot
    - radically reduced exp

    - keep exp the same as soloing (don't punish us you idiots) or enjoy the hatred because you clearly hate us.
    - what else are we supposed to take from this treatment? joy? "Oh thank you for dividing me from my friends! Thank you!"
    - this is BIG part of why you can't retain players

    Your creatures are pathetic. At least in an MMO, for Christ's sake, we ought to be able to group with two or more people without being punished.
    - if you hate groups so much just remove the group feature.
    - have it only be platoons
    - that's the whole goal of this current era in human history isn't it? make everyone hate each other?
    - might as well accelerate the process. it'd be progressive.
    Or, you know, you make some decently challenging creatures in groups of 5 that take awhile to kill and give decent rewards based on TIME SPENT AT IT rather than who slapped it the hardest?
    1. it worked for 20 years in all the original mmos
    2. what's your excuse?
    Probably, just to play Devil's Advocate, your excuse is, "Our gear system doesn't work that way."
    - Well, that's nice. Here's the thing. HP is just time. AP is just time subtracted.
    1. Make GROUP creatures be worth a certain amount of time.
    2. This way they can do all of their abilities.
    3. And so can players.
    4. Players with a gear score of some class below that demanded to a creature do 1/5 damage to it. And just keep raising the amount of damage for the amount of gear. That way, no matter if someone has crap gear they can STILL GO WITH THEIR FRIENDS THERE.
    5. Reward them loot EQUAL TO THEIR GEAR.

    Problem solved.

    It would be no different than having a few places scattered around the world for HUNTING... which you already have.

    See? Simple.

    6. To make the content AS PLAY and FUN ... REWARDING (an alien concept for you, I know) try having some % lean to the creatures. That way if a person who is going to be hitting them for 1 or 5 might hit for some % more based on how many SKILL POINTS at one Level that skill is be factored. (Yeah, I know, that's asking for some work)... but at least you'd have some PLAYER RETENTION REGIONS rather than "Go solo grind for five years you worthless peasant, and then pay me $$$$ for your suffering'. It doesn't exactly generate any love for you to keep acting this way towards your NEW and RETURNING players NOR YOUR OLD. (You're doing it to all of us).
    - in other words, by doing this you would have some cinematic combat zones

    It doesn't mess with your bottom line either.

    Issue II
    You make Silver and Energy Gain low because you Silver and Energy to make money $$$$, but because of your focus for getting them $$$$$$$s out of us you rather FORGOT TO MAKE A GAME.
    - you had one
    - but that's gone
    Garmath just flaps around unable to be attacked for most of the fight. Then drops nothing.
    1. you disrespect us.
    2. you have us go to these things for the chance of a drop.
    3. you have nothing that records how often we have gone.
    4. consiquently you disrespect our time.
    5. we go for a year.
    6. get nothing equal to that year in reward
    7. because your entire reward system BOTTLENECKS on Silver
    8. YOU CANNOT REWARD US FOR PLAYING THE GAME!!!!!!!!

    You are your own enemies and make enemies of us by these choices.


    This is why we can't have alts.
    Because to make an Alt is to spend silver.
    You don't give us enough silver to do that.
    If we did get enough silver to do that we would be uncutting ALL OF OUR PROGRESS ENTIRELY
    Because we need Silver AND Energy to improve our gear
    Or pick flowers
    JUST PLAY THE STUPID GAME YOU CHARGE US OUR OWN TIME!!!!!!!

    I really hate for this.

    Do you think we don't notice?

    You tax us for being taxed.

    You are truly loathsome.

    How do you think this is moral or ethical?

    If you are going to charge me energy to use a stupid hoe on a Lakiaro when the Lakiaro doesn't reward as much money as using that energy elsewhere would bring... do you know what you did? YOU charge US a net loss FOR PLAYING THE GAME!!!!!!!

    This is why we get so entirely irate with you.

    This is why you can't retain players.

    You actually punish us for playing.

    You are insane.
     
    #1 Belle Atwell, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2020
    DarkGG, Graugus and Oaklay like this.
  2. Belle Atwell

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    If you're going to bottleneck content figure out what ELSE there is to do.

    1. If it costs me THE SAME (rewards) Silver to upgrade my Alt's gear as I'm using for my Main then I can't have an alt.
    - you are actually preventing me from PLAYING

    2. If it costs me THE SAME (play) TIME to Gather as it does to Grind, but I get less for one or the other then I can't do the other and maintain the ABILITY to PLAY with the people I play with. Because I'll FALL BEHIND.
    - again, you are actually preventing me from PLAYING

    This is where the current MMO industry has gotten to as a whole. Complete and utter insanity. I realize that if you don't make $$$$ then the lights don't stay on. The game doesn't keep existing.
    - We're NOT asking for better gear
    - We're NOT asking for more silver
    - We're asking WHAT IS THERE TO PLAY?

    I think this question is fundamentally what is behind the collapse of the MMO industry. You ask for our $$$$, but you then also demand that we play for an absurd number of hours because you are too lazy to make content that is actually ENJOYABLE for that many hours.

    So, I ask you... what can you make that is enjoyable for 110 days? How about a year?
    - Now, I presume some of you are Buddhist and others of you are still another religion that has a concept of hell or karma.
    - What exactly is the Karmic debt you acquire in your next life for creating this much entropy in this one? This much wasted life in this one?
    - are we learning anything from these lengthy grinds?
    - can I pick up a new language while playing?
    - read a book?
    - finish another project?
    - where is all of this time going?
    - did you put the location somewhere beautiful or at the bottom of poop-valley in Valencia?
    - when I am confronted with the challenges you present to me is there the opportunity for me to improve my abilities in fighting these creatures the next time from this one? perhaps they will come with a different assortment of them? something with any sort of GAME to it?

    I think you are a very, very, talented group of artists and I genuinely love most of what you make.

    But...

    You have thoroughly lost sight of the GAME and the PLAY.


    Your REWARDS are Bottlenecked on Silver or Energy.
    - this is to make $$$$

    However, you'd be better off creating a NEW rewards BESIDES Silver so that the content you make doesn't make you worry we'll be Enhancing TOO FAST and then ruin the game for ourselves and everyone else.

    We'd be very happy to pay you $$$$$ for something BESIDES silver IF you made CONTENT that had GAME and PLAY.

    Currently, you copy-paste the same dead-dumb AI with new skins to every single location in the game.

    Ultimately, I think a problem you could currently address is making a few group locations like I said above.

    If you want PLAYERS to be PAYERS you have to have SOMETHING to PLAY.

    And that's currently non-existent all over the place.

    And so long as OUR REWARDS for PLAYING are only a pipeline to YOU getting $$$$$$ then you'll always just design some new "problem" we can only "solve" with $$$$$.

    There's no point of return after that. At the end of the day people only have so much money. Even the most richie richie of people aren't going to pay you anything if all you did was repaint what you sold them last time.

    The dragons drop no rewards because you aren't interested in making anything PLAYFUL we can get from them. Say, for example, temporary travel amulets. Things that let us jump abnormally far or fun fast (without goofy animations, because that just demonstrates more laziness on your part). But anyway ANYTHING with GAME or PLAY to it rather than items I've and everyone else I know just deletes at this point. We need one thing from these stupid creatures and you don't give us enough money in the game to ever get it PLAYING.

    All we can do is Enhance.

    I hate to tell you this, but ENHANCEMENT ISN'T GAMEPLAY!!!!!!!!

    Why do you hate us PLAYING the GAME so much? Stop punishing us for PLAYING.
     
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  3. Chainscythe

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    Dude, you realy should get into lifeskilling, questing, bartering, trading, manage your workers and do some worldexploring to stop this stress or take a break from the game, if that absolutely isn`t for you ...

    I mean you got some points there, but you see progress as only intensive to play the game, wich is part of it but should never be the ONLY reason you play it. I know many ppl burning out, because they grind, enhance, grind, enhance, grind, ... and never let themself go out in the world and stop caring about "wasting" their time ...

    Stop the maximum effeciency, because in the end you decide how you play this game and you cannot win versus a hamster wheel.

    Some examples you could do with your mates is doing sailing daylies, take screenshots with them, fight in the Arena with them, grind Miru with them, meet them in Iliya while bartering or fight in a Guildwar at Garmoth ...

    Its not the game that makes you feel this way, its the way you play it. Maybe Hardcore progression is ment for you, but not for your mates, that have quit, or maybe its also not ment for you, or you need a break from it ...

    I have been grinding alot and I have been in this struggle (I am abit ahead of your progression), but I took some steps back and started relaxing. Just dont push yourself to the limit, take time while you ride somewhere and enjoy the scenery, take what you get but dont count it too carefuly and well ... try to not invest your time, but enjoy it.
     
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  4. Graugus

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    I'm surprised they haven't deleted this yet.

    Anyhow, I think this is a great, thought out post in regards to this subject matter. I agree with you on this as well. When I first started this game I had 4 toons across the three different servers at launch, I purchased every costume, inventory slot, weight and a host of other things just to find out which server I wanted to make my home. I had found a really good guild on the "Official " BDO RPing server at the time "Silver Kestrels" and decided to try my hand at enhancing. I spent two dedicated years trying to get my base armor to TET with no success on any of my accessories going to TET (I spent over 80 billion in silver trying to get TET accessories in this ****ing game). I then tried my hand at getting one PEN starting from 135 FS when I did finally get all my stuff to TET only blowing all the **** up and ending up with 185 FS with nothing to use it on (I was broke at this time).

    I quit for about a year after realizing how much money I had spent between me and my son's account buying all the stuff I thought was needed for a head start in the game $12,000 over 3.5 years (Things was much harder to obtain at launch than now). I came back after a year but my son and his 6 friends who left with me have not said the game costs too much and is not worth playing because it does not support 5 man parties/group play like other MMOs out there.

    I think your analysis is spot on with how problems are developed within this game and have gotten me thinking again.

    Good read.
     
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  5. Graugus

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    They will be nerfing all this life skilling **** sooner or later, once they realize that their profit margin from people not buying pearl shop **** sits in, mark my words.
     
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  6. Lord_Xenon

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    I didn't read everything so I will address some points from my view:

    >>It had been:
    - 86 days since one guildie quit because they hit the Enhancement Barrier and could not get their gear to move to 210 AP.<<

    That guildmember was a fail. Sorry but with quest/challenge accs + DUO/TRI boss he would already get there. Before Capotia/accs from mainquest I would view it still as fail from him. The barrier 210 AP is nothing. When we talk about Tet accs+boss, THEN I would accept that, but here he just failed and blame the game for this. You can buy DUO/TRI easily from the MP and don't need to rng up.

    >>- It has been 52 days another guildie left for the same reason.<< Same as above.


    >>- It has been 10 days since still another guildie who joined at the same time as his friend left because he can't progress at the same pace as his friend.<< Part of another problem I will comment on.

    >>- It has been 7 days since one of our officers quit because, as he said to me today elsewhere, "I don't think I'll be returning to BDO if all there is is grind."<< Yeah grind. <insert nonsense go with it or go to another game>. Problem lies with this due the game design. Due the infinite character(more or less) it lives from a long journey. Other games don't have that. Instead they have a fixed cap('Endgame') and you want to rush there asap to 'play' the game. Then comes the part of gear roulette(introduction of new gear that is better/replace old gear) which let you grind in those 'better' games again(mostly with a RNG as well to get f* out after running a dungeon for the 30th time). In grind games people burn out due the grind, while in others they leave the game because there is nothing to do or their 'progress' got again removed.

    >>This is why I keep complaining about not being able to GROUP TOGETHER
    - It has been three years
    - You keep deleting this possibilities.
    - I have not yet been wrong
    - Whoever is your design manager that things that separating friends from friends by random enhancement divides is a good plan needs a firm sit down and discussion because it isn't fun.
    When people are grouping with their FRIENDS through the GRIND the satisfaction with the tedium goes up exponentially.<<

    The problem lies in the core of the game: Open World AND Ap brackets.

    The first question you need to answer, before even complaining is: How would YOU design a party spot? Due the Open world you can interact with other players directly. Instead of being in an instance/dungeon. This mean this very different in design. You don't have a closed environment but an open one. This render a lot of mechanics useless that could be used to make grouping viable.
    Like dynamic scores. In Open World you can't make that. In dungeon like system either bracket or dynamic enemies can be used for that - but tbh this community DON'T want an equalizer. They want to use their gear(looooool) but don't want to 'use' given gear for that. This is a contradiction for me(else someone need to explain how they want to have everyone the same stats when they all want to use their own gear?!)
    Just look at the 'gearscore check' AoB for that. Or Rift(okay rewards...).
    The other factor is the more AP give way more AP. This creates another imbalance as a difference of 30/60 isn't just 30/60 but way more. In Open world you can't design mobs freely as some of the restrictions(like killing all mobs/mini-boss etc.) can't be applied to it, so you must directly design the reward into them, but don't make them to easy for the 'group'. That way you need to create god-like creatures to have something you can match against a group of 3+ people. Else it will even for solo players easy. Especially with the mentioned Ap jump 'feature'.
    And without the bare minimum of hardcaps for AP for grindspots, it open up the 'gorup' grindspots for solo gods that then abuse the content.
    Another question is how you want to design the rewards for group. While all can loot the mob - which introduce leaching - the reward for needing/assembling a group is another factor you need to price in. So creating 'solo' spots is way easier to do, especially for earlier stages than for later.

    And how to make silver: A lot of methods to do so. And making 100M/d with TRI BS? Sounds like a fail for me. That is like 2h work at most. Maybe just a casual complaining? Then the problem lies more in the person itself or it's nonsense view that a MMO need to be done within 2 month.
     
  7. Nextgengame

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  8. Stealthe

    Stealthe SteaIthe Wizard 62 NA

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    The only perfect solution to end game is ending the game but nobody wants a game that ends so therefore their is no perfect solution.
     
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  9. Nicci

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    Are you for real? Do you feel better? Get all that pent up rage and aggression off your chest? If you're that pissed off at the game that you need to go write a book to trash the game and its creators, then I think it's about time you set the game aside and find something else to do. I cut out most of your post in my quote. I mean really what is this? "I have not yet been wrong." According to who? There is so much wrong with that post,which is obvious by jumping to the end and seeing all the hate speech. Go for a walk, friend. Read a book or something.
     

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