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Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Coeprandua, Apr 28, 2018.
More grind spots like gyfin with mob ai like Gahaz elites sures. Instanced, hell no
Although it has been stated many times that the game is centralized around PvP and confrontation and that view has been re-bolstered by the dev's released statements many times, they do add PvE content, but its still channeled ultimately towards one direction -> siege.
With that having been said, the world of BDO is vastly expandable, and it is still new. (Whut? Its been 3 years?!)(Yeah but in industry terms, its still new).
The majority of the content they push for the next 2 years at least will still probably continue to be pointed towards "their dream". It is when they "realise" "their dream" is limiting the games potential that they may shift their stance and aim for bigger stars in the sky. They probably already know this, I don't see how they couldn't, as all game developers research the market for what gamers want and they know that the community of gamers is ultimately split into many niches.
So, eventually the game will expand beyond its current horizons, (Eventually), and more types of content will be seen. The question will be what types of content could BDO hold? And that is something the community can help come up with.
Raids & Dungeons are "the normal" PvE contents in most "pve oriented games"....but what else? You & We, have to go beyond that "burger box".
We have Horse Racing, Fishing, Sailing & Ocean/Ship content (needs work), Underwater content (needs work), and Hunting content (needs work).......But what else?
Obviously there is a vast amount of possible content expansions for Aerial gameplay (airships, flying, etc)....and personally I believe there could be some "tower defense" type content (notating the night mob-raid parties that attack outposts in lower regions)
So what can you think of? What could be "something else to do" in Black Desert?
Instead of arguing over what BDO is or is not, or what will or won't happen, come up with an idea and put it forward. If it never sees the light of day, oh well at least its out their in the resource pool....but if it does then awesome, feel good about it.
If you like Gathering & Crafting, then submit ideas for things you wanna craft......If you like Sailing & Boats, then write that awesome topic on what you would expand in the ocean and naval content.....if you like Building, run with it and lets talk about that. Pick your play, and make your ideas known, and who knows, maybe one day a developer that's hit a creativity wall will go "rummaging through the closet" and find your little gem, blow off the dust and say "I like this"
PvE content does not equate to "just Dungeons and Raids".
Can confirm sea monster hunting is bad (source: I was in a sea monster hunting guild). There's a bunch of unintuitive tricks you can use to move your boat and turn faster, but the controls wasn't the problem. The problem was it takes an hour to get out there until you have the boost skill. You can ram your way out there faster but both ways are so mind numbing it's better to turn in the right direction, click auto-run and get a beer. Don't auto-path the auto-path in the ocean is horrendous. It will literally take you twice as long to get to the same place. Just plot a course with no islands in the way.
The monster are just damage sponges, which can out turn your boat which makes it hard to solo except with an exceptional ship. When you get a few boats together you can make quick work of them however. It is kind of ridiculous though that you have to grind sea monsters above your boats gear just to get drops to enhance your boat. However, the biggest downside is the lack of rewards (except for guild missions), and the exceptional travel time.
A sea monster hunting trip is going to take you about 4 hours to complete, which is utterly ridiculous. To add on to that, if you seriously want to do get good at it you're going to have to do daily trade runs to magoria, because it's the the main source of sailing exp. So plan to spend 2-3 hours heading back and forth to magoria each day. I'd recommend getting a sailing alt, but RIP if your trade life-skiller is your main.
Did I mention this is a heavy, heavy life skiller course of play. You need at least an epheria sailboat, preferably a frigate with some gear on it. Therefore, you're going to need at least 200 contribution points, high gathering level, high processing, a bunch of workers. You're going to need to underwater gather, so I hope you have dive clothes. Though, with the fairy that might not be needed anymore. You're also going to need to make some trade crates or something to make it worth your time going out there everyday until you can imperial trade. Whaling is a lot less stressful and more approachable, but you're still shooting at a whale for about an hour. I can go into how all that works but I think I wrote enough.
Thoughts on the main topic: I don't think BDO can be a sandpark game. I think it can either be a themepark or a sandbox. If it wants to be a sandbox, then it has to give players more freedom to change the world, more customization, more actions. If it wants to be a themepark then it needs content badly. It needs instance zones that can challenge players. In my opinion BDO has always been more of a themepark game than a sandbox one. It's just a very open-world themepark. You can see it in the trade system, which has no player interaction, the marketplace with set prices, the boss drops which are uncraftable, bosses which spawn on timers, the lack p2p trade, phased housing, and more. There's a few rigid ways to play the game, with set ROIs. There's no sabotage, espionage, market-day trading, or other unintended types of play that are commonality to a sandbox genre.
Agree with this dev's need to pick what their game is meant to be and work on content base on that. Hoping the people love grinding forever has limits.
This is a very idealistic view. The game will die long before the devs could achieve their dream state, simply because it's a weird kind of dream that not many people share. I'd rather we looked at reality.
The majority of people who started at launch already left because they had imagined this game to be something entirely different from what it turned out to be.
Those who came here looking for that next-gen MMO of promise didn't imagine it would be a pseudo-MMO with no real pve.
Those who like crafting and sandbox grow tired of it being both a false promise and a futile effort due to the simple fact that they exist in a bubble all by themselves, there is no trading, there is no working with others for a greater goal in the field of crafting and sandbox.
Right now, as we speak, the game is like a trap for new, unsuspecting players, who might come here for very different reasons. They might look at the combat and world-builidng and believe the next-gen MMO lie, only to find the game empty. They might come for node wars and sieges and the pvp aspect in general only to find it's literally gated behind constant grind that can take thousands of hours depending entirely on your luck.
One thing is certain, these people won't put up with the BS for years to come. PA knows this full well and their only purpose is to milk these people and suck them dry as long as their idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions of the game are maintained despite the fact that they are contradicted by reality. Which is like 1-2 months for a semi-intelligent MMO-gamer, I guess.
Competitive pvp game?
Just get better gear than your opponent! You automatically win!
Your class is ****?
Reroll to FOTM class!
Its a PVP Game?
I cant find that its a PVP Game on the steam or the official website advertisements..... All says open world mmorpg
But riddle me this.
How does one do competitive pvp in Sieges and Nodewars, when more than half of both sides still DC and lag horribly spite the server migration?
Questions, Riddles....Puzzles! Such brain twisters....
Until BDO realizes that decent PvE requires a trinity, something GW2 learned somewhat recently themselves even though they tried pretty hard to break the trinity, PvE will not be meaningful or mechanically driven to the extent the players that like PvE are asking for.
Things I would personally like to see:
Open World dungeons with mini bosses and a mega boss at the end, similar to delves in ESO. Takes a very experienced group to dungeon crawl through (no instances). Mechanically driven fights.
World Bosses that have a lot more mechanics to them that challenge players. Not just a gear score challenge. Contested points similar to Lineage 2's World Bosses.
Ocean content developed more. Sailing, diving, treasure hunting, underwater cave exploration etc.
More group grinding spots with more intelligent AI
Rework of classes so everyone isn't just a glorified DPS
Trading & Market rework to encourage player interaction
Karma system rework
“Instance and Open world content can co-exists”
What about BDO's combat and class system? Even in games like Tera and Archeage there's a class system that allows for players to take on designated roles. As @Vunak has already pointed out. BDO's class and action combat systems don't allow for such things. I think I said it in another thread before but - You'd just be in an instance area doing the same thing that you do in open world. hacking and slashing bosses and mobs. It would be a waste of time, effort, and resources to create instance content just to have players doing the some thing they do in open world. For it to work they'd need to rework all the classes and I think that'd piss off a lot of the already existing player base. (also idk with how class balancing has been I don't think they'd do a good job of reworking them) “Instance content would be a nice option”
They made savage rift in response to this and as far as I can tell it wasn't received well by players.
Don't get me wrong I'm all for talking about fleshing out PvE content. I just don't think dungeons and raids is the answer for BDO. Instead I think they need to flesh out current concepts and mechanics that exist in the game already. (and given the road-map, they've seem to acknowledge this on some level) I think the key to a better PvE experience for BDO is to give more incentives for people to explore together and interact with each other. Right now they have too many mechanics that have players interacting more with the system than each other.
Increased chance at gaining better knowledge while in a party.
Treasure hunting where you get better loot while in a party.
Everyone get's their own loot while in a party.
I'd personally like to see
Open world jumping puzzles. look, I loved the jumping puzzles in GW2
Player owned shops, Or even just regionlized market places.
More fulfilling ocean content.
Card and bored games to play in taverns
Dancing and Interactive emotes
I also think they need to rework the karma system that creates some sort of player driven faction system. That's more of a PvP thing tho.
I agree, they should follow the example of warframe, a really old game with lots of awesome new content (quitted long time ago after spending a lot but read today that the game still going strong). I also stopped playing bdo (again 4th time now) after the last patch (also after spending my 10k pearls on something useless as usual hehe). Thank God I found a mobile game to relieve the boredom (already spent some money as well haha). I think im good to go to wait until lahn and drieg comes out, honestly I havent set foot in kama yet in my 2 years of playing bdo as valencia was good enough to get me to 60-62 haha. I also stopped playing when mystic was announced so I didnt suffer waiting for it, when played again, it was there.
Did you ever play Vindictus and if yes, did you ever played it extensively 'till Season 2/3? it has one of the best raid system and combat across the MMORPGs and it doesn't have roles, every class is DPS; there are support skills that this or that class has, but they're a non factor as you need to learn boss patterns and master your class.
Yes and I vaguely remember doing a raid. My point still stands: What you do in open world with world bosses & mobs would be the same as an instance. Would be better to add more extreme world bosses. Possibly try and revamp the current ones again too. (also if I remember right there will be a dragon boss in the upcoming region drieghan ) Another thing that ties into this, they need to change the values of damage for world bosses so if a player doesn't understand it's patterns or mechanics it actually hurts them. Instead of just being able to take damage 'cause god tier gear.
Lastly, Vindictus was a dungeon runner. Raids was a natural progression. A selling point for BDO is it's open world. Doesn't really make sense for main PvE content to be instance dungeons and raids.
Your point doesn't stand if you played Vindictus as you said. Also it makes sense, as instanced dungeon doesn't mean that is going to kill what BDO is. Teleports would do that, as you would find half of the people around and if you're at war with half of them or just in the mood to mess around, you'd have half of the people to interact with compared to now.
An instance means that they can set different rules compared to the rest of the world: if you want smarter AI they can code them separately in a dungeon giving them even 15 different patterns or giving to "gravity" a different value, making your jumps for example higher than they are in the rest of the world or your ability to swim different from the one that we currently have without doing a complete restyle that they anyway won't do, because they should put their hands on tons of lines of code that different people have set.
In Vindictus they did exactly that back then: for S1 you had the combat system with smart boss that could still kill you despite being hold, yet for S2 to make it more realistic they made a different kind of "physics" that you could see upon jumping, sprinting or using attacks in order to move.
In BDO, without instances, this would require to modify the physic in general or it would be restrained to the current one, so nothing would change. You would also keep the desync and lag upon having that area crowded, limiting therefore the enjoyment of people doing that fake instance, which would defeat the purpose of being instanced.
Desync and lag are the main factor that make you die in PvE in this game, also the collisions with other players make it absolutely annoying most of the time as there are class that just stand on their block, players that do not keep up with boss movements and the inability to see if there are obstacles when an area is too crowded.
How can you even code a boss properly when sometime you rubberband back where you were? this game has been made for Korean network infrastructures which are the fastest in the world like every Korean game, so doesn't matter how good your connection or computer is, you will always rubberband/desync/lag in certain situations.
Also if the boss is meant to submit to BDO world's normal physic, you'll see him reset or lose the aggro based on how far you can go or how little you damaged him, in an instance you can set him to hunt you down no matter how far you can go and no matter what kind of threat are you for him.
You can really do whatever you wish with an instance, you don't even need the holy trinity as you guys claim since everyone is DPS, tank and Healer (HP pot spam) in this game.
An instance wouldn't defeat the purpose of BDO open world, it would only make you appreciate more the game overall, as you could still go outside, grind mindless mobs, do Field Boss or lifeskill, as long the instances won't be more remunerative than the normal grinding or won't force you to do them on purpose to get something BIS that cannot even be sold in MP, then it's all good.
Everything you just wrote is possible in the OW. Even the desync or multiple players with collision. They already have the tech in place with scroll bosses and towns. They already have vast roaming NPCs in the desert so rubber-banding mobs back to their path could be dealt with.
Instances are not a solution to BDO's endgame PvE. BDO is built on being a large OW MMORPG. You include instances with that and you kill the whole point of BDO. Especially when everything you said can be handled in the OW.
If I remember right they killed boss chains in an effort to get players to spread out and pick and chose what bosses they go after. Thus trying to reduce the number of players at one boss.
The problem is the coding and balancing that would require on the development side. you'd need to do dungeon design, concept design, write new code and create new assets. That a huge load on the developers end. Them doing all of that only to make it some 2nd rate gear you can't even sell? Yeah...I don't think that makes sense. If they put in that much effort into it, they'll want to "encourage" players to run dungeons. The idea that it would make people appreciate open world more is an opinion. One that I personally disagree with. I like BDO because of it's open world and minimal instances areas.
So they're either doing base level stuff and you'd be doing the same things you do can do in open world.
Or they'll go OTT and want to change the way players play the game. Because why would they put that much effort into something that only a few people want? They already tried putting their toes in the water with savage rift and the reception was luke warm. It doesn't make sense to try and continue in that direction.
There are plenty of ways they could encourage player interaction and flesh out PvE without instanced dungeons.
PVE raid bull**** like every stupid Theme-Park out there isn't going to help this game if the A.I. remains dumb as a post and none of the mobs use any skills that require the player to think before reacting beyond hitting the shift key.
Mobs need Paramilitary order. They need "Classes" of their own and patrol routes. More than 8 of them need to be able to aggro on the same target. They need stacking buffs they can buff each other with; and the more of them you Aggro and clump together, the more they multiply those numbers of buffs Some of them even explode ignoring your D.R. or give a stonger buffs to their allies when they die. PvE needs to be a CHALLENGE that makes players have to plan out their attacks a bit more than just "UGG ME JUMP IN & SMASH UNTIL HAVE TO PUSH V".
I need pvp content, give me a large scale objective based pvp that can be run all day. This game has some of the best combat but they reduce it to axes in wars..... right click left click wow...... oh and if you want to pve u can go do rift and shoot a a gun..... wow.... way to waste a good combat system. The main pvp I get is node wars 2 times a week and siege 1 time a week..... again wow.... I'm kinda at my limits I love this game but the ppl running it have no clue that the majority of players are fed up and as soon as a mmo comes out with a decent combat system and achieves a better pvp set up (that part won't be hard) this game will lose a ton of players. It was all good to release new class after new class for that cash grab but now that other mmos are coming you guys need to do something with your endgame
Their last update actually fixed alot of this
Ive seen ALOT of bored players flock to places like hystria where they can get a much different grinding experience than ever before
And its really motivated people to push for the new 270 ap soft cap
And we've seen how much this is effective, boss gets nuked as soon as they appear with the exception of RN and Mudster as their drops are not so desired and Nouver & Khutum because they're too far and not everyone wants to get there just for one or two boss.
I didn't talk about 2nd rate gear, what i said is that it doesn't have to be something BiS in order to not force people to do it nor i said that this kind of gear couldn't be sold in MP, in fact i said the contrary in regard of this last claim. It doesn't even have to be gear, it can be special accessories, bundles with materials in a smaller quantity + exp + skill exp, it can be pretty much anything at this point.
Also Savage Rift was lukewarm because it's a bad content made for no one: it's not a real PvE content, it's more like a minigame with annoying gimmicks which forces you in an annoying fight with an ingame tool without using the abilities of your character. If i want to use a musket i can go to hunt Khalk, Whales or whatever, although those things are also buggy as hell, so there's really no point in doing that.
When they'll further improve hunting and the physic in general and you won't plant yourself like a carrot in the soil for 2 seconds whenever you fall from a rock 1 inch tall, then maybe more people will do it.
Using Savage Rift as example of instanced "PvE" content is like saying that hitting a dummy in battle arena to try out combo is challenging ranked PvP, it doesn't make any sense, it's just a different category of content.
You can disagree as much as you wish, i believe the contrary, but let's not find excuses to demonize instances when in fact they would just be another feature that probably some of us would use: the coding is all here, the assets with all the texture are still here and all they would need is just to put all those stuffs together and mix them into a new thing, that's it. All they need is to code the physic and set the rules, it's not like they should make another new brand game inside this game.
Saying that "Everything is possible" doesn't make it automatically true. Instances can be coded in a different way from the rest of BDO world, something that could not be done with a semi-instanced area like "Aakman" or "Savage rift" without changing the entire BDO physics as they both exist in BDO world as physical areas.
If you want to elaborate i can agree maybe, but the fact that there are empty areas of this world or instanced scrolls doesn't invalidate my point about instances being "needed" for certain purposes.
Thing is, Vindictus is not an mmorpg and never was.
It's a simple beat them all at the very core, with online functionnalities, slapped with grinding elements from MMORPGS (gear grind, SP grind ...) to artificially extend its lifespan (and monetisation you can take out of it)
What is a MMORPG? if you look card games should be real card games with physical copies of cards, not app on your mobile where you find a 1 star card and then you can improve it 'till 5 stars, yet those exist and now are probably the most known kind of card games and they will be even more popular even in the next years.
Everything changes, including the concept of what is a game, the boundaries are mixing up and in that scenario, even an "Hack n' Slash" game like Vindictus is considered MMORPG and therefore it is.
We can call those games how we want, problem is, some are better at certain things compared to others and if we can strive for the best, let's at least try.