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Valkyrie Analysis and Suggestions

Discussion in 'Valkyrie' started by Netreiam, Apr 22, 2020.

  1. Netreiam

    Joined:
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    Figured I might as well post this here since the subform is dead anyway.

    Introduction:

    Valkyrie has been in a pretty bad spot for a while now. Some issues are just a result of the class being older and falling behind the times like many others, and some are due to the recent changes that removed or nerfed many core aspects of the class without compensating the class in any way to make up for it.

    The primary focus of this thread isn't just making valk strong, but making her fun and more unique as a class. Most of the suggestions I have are for "useless" or bad skills because I think that overall valk is fine conceptually and just needs a few skills to fill in the gaps.

    That said, I'm not against a more incremental or "needs" focused approach. I think both ways of advocating for buffs have their merits and I wanted to focus on skills that have been left to rot because I don't see the point in having a skill tree if you don't use 90% of the skills on it.

    -EDIT-
    Due to succession, and the fact that I haven't updated this in a while. I decided to update this thread. With that said, this will be specifically regarding awakening valkyrie and pre awakening skills.

    Part 1: Preawakening Remaster:
    - Intention
    - Global Changes
    - Suggestions

    Part 2: Awakening Changes:
    - Intention
    - Suggestions

    Part 3: Closing Remarks


    Part 1: Preawakening Remaster
    Intention:
    It has been years since Black Desert Online was first released, and the game has changed dramatically because of that. It is a fact that the preawakening of classes recently released are better than older classes. They have better AoE, better damage scaling, better utility, and don't suffer from the myriad of dated effects, such as slow motion action, that you find on older classes. My goal here is not to create an entirely new class, but to modernize to refine the qualities of Valkyrie's existing preawakening skills into something that is more focused and effective in the current meta.

    Looking at the current skills I believe Preawakening focuses on precise and damaging attacks, counters against attackers, and actively tanking with shield, while also being capable of large AoEs with the drawback of them being relatively slow. This is evident by how in preawakening Valkyrie has 3 "counter" skills, very small but fast CCs, and most of the AoE attacks are slow in nature. This is going the be the frame of reference for all the changes I plan to suggest.


    Global Changes
    1. Affected skills:
    [​IMG]
    Shield Throw
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    Just Counter
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    Counter
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    Sharp Light
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    Flying Kick

    Proposal:
    Remove resetting cooldowns.

    Reason:
    Resetting cooldowns are a left over from the oldest times of BDO, the fact that this "feature" does not appear on any of the newer classes is reason enough to remove this mechanic that only serves to limit older classes in an unfair and unjustified way.



    2. Affected skills:

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    Ultimate: Severing Light
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    Ultimate: Flurry of Kicks
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    Ultimate: Divine Power

    Proposal:
    Share Ultimate skill modifiers with original skill modifiers (ex: Ultimate severing light does severing light damage x4)

    Reason:
    This already exists on Shield Throw and Celestial spear, it should apply to all ultimate skills so that they scale properly with absolutes.


    Suggestions:
    [​IMG]
    Shield Chase

    Proposal:
    - Change protection for Forward Guard to I-frame
    - Reduce the cooldown for level II and III by 2 seconds each (from 10s and 17s to 8s and 15s)
    - Make all levels travel the same distance as level III

    Reason:
    Valkyrie is the only class in the game without a movement ability that has I frame. Shield chase would be a good candidate to make an I frame because it is usable in both pre-awak and awakening. Lowering the cooldown of the later levels by 2 seconds I think is fair given that it is the only protected movement valkyrie has outside of Death Line Chase every 3 seconds.



    [​IMG]
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    Severing Light

    Proposal:
    - Add Forward Guard
    - Increase attack range slightly (blades of light shooting forward) and widening attack range slightly
    - Increase animation speed
    - Increase the heal effect to 90 per hit
    - Add a 7s cooldown that removes both effects

    Reason:
    This buff aims to make it a viable way to regain a bit of HP when actively engaged without resorting to party heals with long cooldowns. And makes it a slightly better skill for filler damage in PvE with the increased range



    [​IMG]
    Sword of Judgement

    Proposal:
    Increase animation speed by 20%

    Reason:
    This skill was a combo staple before the awakening days, although the damage has been increased the relatively slow speed and small AoE means that there isn't much reason to use it.

    Increasing the animation speed would make it more usable as a quick combo filler, especially given how many cancels there are for the activating the last hit.



    [​IMG]
    Guard

    Proposal:
    - Match Scaling to Awakening Shield

    Reason:
    Due to how reliant Valkyrie is on her block, swapping to pre-awakening, even for the necessary tasks of repositioning, can instantly destroy her block due to how weak it is.


    [​IMG]
    Shield strike

    Proposal:
    - Increase the animation speed by 15%
    - Remove or massively reduce the collision slow
    - Add -12% evasion debuff
    - Movement distance of second and third hit increased
    - Replace the "Shield Counter" cancels with the third hit of "Shield Strike"

    Reason:
    This skill has very little purpose. It deals little damage, is slow, has no buff/debuffs, and is not protected.
    The skill could have some use in grouping mobs. The speed up makes it a bit better.



    [​IMG]
    Shield Counter

    Proposal:
    - Add super armor
    - Allow the skill to cancel the blocking hitstun animation
    - Increase attack radius range by 30%
    - Add -20 AP debuff
    - Match damage to shield strike.

    Reason:
    This skill has little range and cannot be used to "counter" attacks quickly enough due to the blocking hitstun animation. It also is unprotected and if a skill has CC usually ends up making the valkyrie get CCed even though she is holding up her shield.

    These changes will make the skill actually usable as a "counter" option. Matching the damage to shield strike just makes sense since Shield Push does the same.



    [​IMG]
    Shield Push

    Proposal:
    - Add Forward Guard
    - Allow the skill to be charged, the current animation is a full charge, a quick release would be near instant.
    - Increase AoE depending on charge time; a quick release being the current AoE, a full charge being an AoE similar in size to divine slam.
    - Increase strength of Forward Guard dramatically (~5x)
    - Increase damage based on # of hits sustained while charging. No hits = shield strike damage x3, 5 hits = shield strike damage x5, 10 hits = x7, 20 hits (max) = x10.
    - Cooldown of 10s added

    Reason:
    This skill needs some major reworks in order to have any semblance of viability. It is slow, unprotected, has a terrible CC a small AoE, and terrible damage.

    This proposal makes the skill a more dynamic counter to the reality of having to tank tons of damage while trying to maneuver with preawakening.



    [​IMG]
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    Just Counter

    Proposal:
    - Remove the first attack
    - Increase the amount of flow hits to 3
    - Change the flow to activate on the last hit. Allow the last hit and flow to be used instantly while blocking attacks.
    - Significantly reduce the time between the (new) first and second hit, increase the speed of the 3 hits multi hit attack (to compensate for the new extra hit)
    - Increase the attack range all hits by 20%
    - Apply forward guard and stiffness to all hits when used off cool down
    - Allow Righteous Charge extra hit attack to be triggered instantly after a stab

    Reason:
    There are many issues with this skill. It loses FG after the first hit, it lacks enough range to actually counter attack most other melee skills, it is very slow for what should be a simple counter, and finally it just feels pointless to use the 2nd and 3rd hits when the first does the most damage.

    This change makes it better at being a forward poke AND at actually countering attacks since the last hit triggering would allow a quick jump to the enemy's position and then following up immediately with the 2 flow hits. Allowing Righteous Charge's extra hit to activate after the flow would be an epic way to use the really good damage on that skill and would look AMAZING too.



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    Skyward Strike

    Proposal:
    - Add Air Smash
    - Increase the AoE slightly.

    Reason:
    This skill has very little use for anything, just having another float serves no purpose.

    Giving this skill an Air Smash would make it a valuable tool for comboing, the AoE increase is needed because it currently does not properly hit sometimes even when used near a target and floating targets are usually moved in a way that moves them outside of the skill range.



    [​IMG]
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    Sharp Light

    Proposal:
    - Remove stamina cost

    Reason:
    There is no reason why a stationary skill should cost stamina.



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    Counter

    Proposal:
    - Forward Guard added on first hit, super armor added on second hit
    - Second hit movement distance increased (same range as "Shield Counter")
    - Second hit collision removed
    - Second hit animation speed increased
    - Second hit activated instantly if attacked during first hit animation
    - CC on second hit changed to stiffness

    Reason:
    This skill is supposed to be a "counter" but is not suited to that purpose. This change makes it live up to the name it was given by giving Valkyrie a counter attack option that can be used as a counter to a forward guard attack



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    Flying kick

    Proposal:
    - Change flow from a second kick to an SP explosion
    - Make the flow trigger whenever using flying kick

    Reason:
    Triggering the flow is a bit iffy and sometimes results in just using flying kick (base skill) twice.This change makes the flow much easier to use and benefit from.



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    Divine Power

    Proposal:
    - Increase animation speed by 50-70%
    - Increase attack speed debuff to 30%

    Reason:
    This skill is as slow as Terra Sancta, has less range than Glaring Slash, and does much less damage than both.

    This proposal focuses on increasing the utility and combo aspect of the skill. The increased speed makes the downsmash more useful as a combo extender and makes the damage viable for a single/few targets while a stronger debuff increases it's utility as a weakening debuff.



    [​IMG]
    Righteous Charge

    Proposal:
    - Reduce Stamina cost to 250
    - Add super armor
    - Remove Knockback in PvP
    - Add small PvE suction to first hit and explosion hit

    Reason:
    The stamina cost is way too high for this skill. Even Hastiludium only costs 200 stamina, 250 is much more fair. Also, super armor is added and knockback removed to make it more preferable as a protected gap closer. A small suction is added to help get the extra damage to hit more targets.



    [​IMG]
    Glaring slash

    Proposal:
    Increase the animation speed by 10% remove/massively reduce the collision slow.

    Reason:
    This is an alright PvE skill, especially given the spin/suction. But just a bit too slow to really encourage its use or spending skill points. This change makes the skill more desirable and useful.



    [​IMG]
    Elion's Blessing

    Proposal:
    - Change the effect to increase DP by 200~300 and give CC immunity (full CC immunity, like the resistance buff given by guard, NOT the 100% increase that is capped out at 60%) except for grab
    - Make the skill constantly buff allies near the valk (like the strong defense passive suggestion) for 1s every second.
    - Visable Aura added so allies and enemies can more easily identify when the skill is activated.
    - Upon being grabbed the skill is canceled.


    Reason:
    This change makes Valkyrie’s version of PA more unique and fair. Like this is becomes much more useful for protecting allies from CC, however the trade off is that damage won’t be reduced by nearly as much and the entire skill can even be nullified by a disrupted like striker or zerker zeroing in on and grabbing the valk.



    [​IMG]
    Judgement of Light and the 100% (Black Spirit Rage version)

    Proposal:
    - Make damage uniform throughout the AoE
    - Increase AoE size by 20%
    - Change the skill into a ranged CC/Attack
    - Decrease casting time to around DoD level
    - Allow casting animation to be canceled by using celestial spear then pressing LMB


    Reason:
    Currently the damage of this skill seems to decrease heavily near the edges of the AoE, which is extremely small. It also is entirely too slow to use as a melee skill, especially given how weak Valkyrie's preawakening guard is.

    Changing it to a ranged skill would make the AoE size much more reasonable because it would be centered around the target (although it should still be increased a little for PvE) Finally, the forward guard already is removed during the actual attack, so it already functions similar to Archer's Luthraghon's Call or Berserker's Flame Burster (both of which are awakening attacks) in that it is not protected while attacking.



    [​IMG]
    Righteous Charge

    Proposal:
    - Change first and second hit to be non-collision.
    - Allow first and second hit to be triggered without hitting targets
    - Change to Forward Guard to Super Armor
    - Remove start up animation
    - Increase travel speed and distance by 15%
    - Reduce cooldown to 25s

    Reason:
    Allowing the dashes to be triggered independently could make this skill a viable candidate for emergency, with non collision, super armor, and an increase of speed and distance to help facilitate that.



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    Celestial Cry

    Proposal:
    - Increase skill radius to match Breath of Elion
    - Replace DP buff, Accuracy, and Movespeed buff with reduce special attack and crit damage by 20%


    Reason:
    This skill is a completely unprotected and was created before absolutes, giving it lower effective values. On top of that the radius for the skill is almost non-existent, it is basically a self heal which is silly considering that it is the combination of two GROUP oriented skills.

    The range is increased for this skill to function as a decent group skill, the buff is changed to help increase the tankiness of other characters in a way other than a DP increase since shielding next to an ally with "Strong Defense" would already be a DP increase. It also makes Valkyrie more unique!



    [​IMG]
    Divine Descent

    Proposal:
    Rework the skill entirely. Its new effect will be removing all debuffs from allies and granting immunity to them for 5~10 seconds and reducing enemy resistances by 50% for 5~10 seconds. The cooldown is reduced to 40s~1m.

    Reason:
    This skill is considered worthless. The not only are the effects themselves pitiful, but the 2 minute cooldown is downright outrageous. This proposal aims at making the skill a potentially powerful one if it is used in the right situation, with both offensive and defensive elements. The cooldown reduced to one that is reasonable considering the effects.


    Part 2: Awakening Rebalancing
    Intention:
    Just as I feel that Valkyrie’s pre-awakening needed modernization to be more useful for her kit, a few design choices (like the buff on wave of light, and useless skill upgrades) make no sense and I would want that refocused into something with purpose.

    Looking at the design of skills, I believe awakening was supposed to be the tankier and more AoE heavy side of Valkyrie, made to rush in with the vanguard of their army and stand firm on the frontlines in support of allies and protect them under the cover of her massive shield. The drawbacks being that she would have less damage and agility compared to her preawakening as well as slower skills due to the more defensive nature of the kit.

    These changes are suggested with that image in mind and also include a few more radical changes that are intended to make protecting allies a more engaging and constant responsibility instead of being the use of a few high cooldown skills.



    Suggestions:
    [​IMG]
    Verdict: Lancia Iustitiae

    Proposal:
    - Remove last hit animation, add half the damage of the last hit to first hit (9 hits of 1000%)
    - Dramatically increase the animation speed (animation 0.7~1 second long)
    - Remove super armor, apply floating in PvP

    Reason:
    This skill is entirely too slow. Even in PvE it is so slow that using the new Revelation flow after enslar is better for damage. In PvP it is suicide to use this skill because of the speed, and it doesn't even deal much damage. These changes not only make the skill more worth using from a time/damage ratio, but also from a CC perspective.



    [​IMG]
    Wave of Light

    Proposal:
    - Remove forward guard
    - Remove charging mechanic

    Reason:
    This skill was good before it was buffed, and the forward guard is only necessary for the charging. Given all the other changes I think a nerf here is justified.



    [​IMG]
    Promptness

    Proposal:
    - Remove stiffness and float from promptness in PvP
    - Apply super armor when used off cooldown
    - Reduce Cooldown to 3s

    Reason:
    As a transition skill this ability needs to have some sort of protection. Stiffness and Float removed in return for super armor is a fair trade that many valks have expressed interest in.



    [​IMG]
    Sacrum Ferit

    Proposal:
    - Remove stiffness in PvP from first 2 hits
    - Add 1 damage hit to the first attack
    - Add Forward Guard to first 2 hits
    - Increase Crit bonus to 40%
    - Apply Crit bonus whenever skill is used

    Reason:
    This skill has counter attack damage, but cannot be used to counter other skills because it has no protection. This allows the skill to be used in the way it was originally intended, keep some CC potential (at least on the last hit), and still honor the "No CC and protection on awakening skills" rule. Increasing the crit bonus and allowing it to be automatic is to help cope with the fact that valkyrie was built to rely on the buff from Celestial spear (which was originally SA) and needs a protected way to increase her crit in combat, the trade off being that the buff would only be half as effective as spear buff.



    [​IMG]
    Blitz Stab

    Proposal:
    - Create a separate version of the skill that is activated when using Blitz stab after "Purificatione", "Wave of Light", and when using "Death Line Chase" backwards.
    - Damage % increased to match "Ultimate: Blitz Stab" (Hits remains at 6)
    - Forward movement removed.
    - Knockback changed to stiffness
    - Attack range increased by 50%
    - Cooldown separate from "Ultimate: Blitz Stab"

    Reason:
    Currently the ultimate version of this skill serves no purpose and is a waste of a skill tree slot. This change aims to create 2 versions of this skill, with this version being a relatively safer CC/damage poke that can be used from defensive positions.



    [​IMG]
    Ultimate: Blitz Stab

    Proposal:
    - Knockback removed in PvP, Super armor added
    - Movement distance doubled
    - Activates faster when used after forward "Death Line Chase"

    Reason:
    This version of blitz stab is now changed to an assaulting skill. The movement distance is increased for that reason and it is given a cancel from Death Line Chase to more easily use it when dashing.



    [​IMG]
    Sanctitas de Enslar

    Proposal:
    - Remove marking hit, add damage to landing hit
    - Apply invincibility to initial animation
    - Allow Valkyrie to move toward to reticle when used without a target.

    Reason:
    One of the biggest problems with using this skill is the fact that you need to have a target to use it. It is supposed to be a skill to help reach the enemy but the relatively slow activation frequently allows targets to move out of range and completely wastes the skill.

    In addition, it is extremely hard to reposition as a Valkyrie due to collision effects limiting movement and getting left behind when ever your group moves. Being unable to move to a more viable position when in a fight is a very huge issue.

    This change will give Valkyrie a repositioning skill that she can use mid-battle that she so desperately needs without making her as agile as squishier assassin classes that deserve high agility. The I frame is added at the beginning to make the skill more effective to that end.



    [​IMG]
    Proposal:
    - Add a passive effect to Strong Defense: while in forward guard, grant a passive buff to allies (excluding self) that reduces damage.
    - Damage reduction effect increased proportional to the Valkrie's DP (EX: 0-100DP gives +10 DP buff, 100-200 gives 30DP buff, 200-300 gives 70DP buff, 300-400 gives 140 DP buff, 400+ gives 250 DP buff)
    - Buff lasts 1 second and is refreshed every second
    - It applies to up to 5 allies
    - Radius of matches Elion’s blessing.
    - "Counter" ability removed

    Reason:
    Ever since awakening (and maybe even before) Valkyries have been more at home flanking and and backline peeling. Not only because their high damage Terra nuke was more effectively used that way, but also because because they couldn’t really support allies outside of high cooldown skills. This passive ability gives Valkyrie a reason to be in the frontlines and makes actively shielding a choice that helps more than just herself.

    The counter ability on strong defense should be removed because it is more harmful than helpful. Not only does the lack of protection make it bad for countering attacks, but the conflict from the RMB button being the same key for Terra Sancta, Sacrum Ferit, and Verdict: Lancia Lustitae makes using any of those skills in a group setting require hotkeying.



    [​IMG]
    Flow: Breath of Elion

    Proposal:
    -New effect added: by holding down E the effect for the skill the single heal is replaced by a buff that heals 4% every 1 second for 15 seconds.
    -cooldown for the heal flow is 1 minute 30 seconds.


    Reason:
    While the current flow’s effect of being able to use "Elion's Breath" while in awakening is useful, it feels like it should have been a property of the skill to begin with. This change makes the use of a skill slot taken by this flow useful because it gives Valkyrie an option between a larger but slower heal to help allies recover after a fight or between engagements or the quicker instant heal to save them mid combat.



    Part 3: Closing Remarks
    First of all, I’d like to say that this is a collection of both personal ideas and suggestions I've heard from others that work toward my image of Valkyrie. While I base that image off of Valkyrie’s existing kit as well as how I think the developers intended for her to work, I realize that I don’t speak for everyone.

    Some believe that Valkyrie is a Flanker or Assassin due to her high burst and suggest changes to cater towards those concepts. Some would rather focus more on offense and completely leave behind the defensive and supportive aspects of the class.

    While I disagree with those sentiments I have no more say than anyone else in determining where Valkyrie heads from her current state. It is up for the devs to decide. In the end these are all just suggestions, if you agree with them please show your support with a comment about your favorite suggestion. If you disagree, leave a comment laying out why and maybe even provide an alternative


    Finally, to the mains of other classes, I realize that there are a lot of changes here that, barring changes for other classes, would put Valkyrie far above most other classes. THIS IS NOT TO MAKE VALKYRIE “OP”. I believe ALL classes could receive changes that further refine their playstyle and makes all their tools more viable. While I often post in favor of old classes, even newer classes are plagued with “useless” abilities that I think should be changed. If you disagree with changes because you don’t want Valkyrie to be “too good” in the current meta, I urge you to try instead to suggest changes to improve your class with changes that give them a more rounded kit so that we can create a new meta where everyone has a varied kit full of useful skills.


    And with that, this post is done. Thanks for reading and please leave a comment about what you think!
     
    #1 Netreiam, Apr 22, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
  2. Legacina

    Legacina Valkyrie 63 EU

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    Thing is
    By nerfing the few dmg skills she has she will be left open with barely any dmg.
    Other classes already do the same or more dmg anyway. Safer And no prebuff required.
    If all of them would get naturally 100% crit and spear would only be optional for certain actions i would understand. But thats not the case.
    Hasti dmg isnt even that good anymore. 80% of the dmg still comes form terra. And not even normal terra
    Youre forced to use 25%.
    If you wanna nerf those give the rest more dmg. So youre more versitile with your combos

    Spear is the bane of our existance
    Use it get ccd and ****ed all the time especially large scale
    Dont use it might aswell play shai. Same dmg



    Simply buffing her block massively so it can withstand pressure even vs multiple people. (Make it stronger than guardian. And make it scale with the amount of people that are against you)
    And adding proper disengage options and properly protected movement would already do alot.

    How it is now. All you do is dash away cause you cant block a single skill.
    Stamina cost is so high you cant dash for long,
    Dashing also means being unprotected.
    Its one huge hell circle.

    But well looking at all the changes happening the past week im not having any hopes.
    Imagine buffing sorcs and succ wizards. When they are already broken beyond believes.

    And the list of skills that got their splitdmg removed just shows how little they know and care
    Not a single one could ever be used to hit many people anyway. Besides non of them will do more than 10% dmg, maybe sharp light with air attack modifier.

    They either really dont give a **** and think the class is fine for some reason.
    Or there might be a big change coming. But yea 2 years of garbage changes. Not having any hopes
     
    #2 Legacina, Apr 23, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
    Noraiga, Muhaha, Naho and 1 other person like this.
  3. Ciroc

    Joined:
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    Nerfing the damage of valkyrie and giving some wonky protection to other skills isnt gonna do jack ****.
    The class is lack luster as it is right now. Compare it to guardian or the short sword classes. They have more protected + more damage than we have.
    Reducing the damage of sancta is just another nail into the coffin of valk. A heal over time is trash btw and gets overshadowed by heals of wizard witch, just look at shai.

    Your vision of valk is some wonky ass support class without any damage that can sit in block longer. Amazing.
     
  4. Netreiam

    Joined:
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    Yeah, thinking about how prevalent high crit has become in this game, damage reliant on high crit isn't what it used to be. In which case, what do you think about the sacrum ferit crit buff idea I just put in?

    That said, I think that the nerfs in damage on terra and hasti are more than balanced by some of the other buffs.
    - Changing the placement of hits on Enslar and Just Counter (which also got a range increase) means more damage on the useful parts of the attack (Basically +25% on enslar and +50% on JC)
    - Super armor on Ult Blitz stab and promptness means a quick and safe option for damage that we couldn't use before in group pvp.
    - The changes on JoL and Shining Dash means completely new ways of attacking that also utilizes damage on skills that were almost never used before.


    Also, while I kind of agree with the need for a stronger block (Just added a change to pre-awakening guard that makes it just as strong as awakening) I also think that the more pressing issue is, as you said, that she has no good disengage and trash af movement options. Changing Shield chase to I frame and Righteous to SA (as well as reducing stam cost) not only means better movement (no more shortened dashes) but also provides a means to regenerate block, unlike currently where dashing still uses block and our weaker one at that. Next, allowing Shining to have no collision and letting Enslar move without a target gives us a really good way to disengage or reposition. Which has been valk's biggest problem since Awakening release days and maybe even before (I wasn't around).


    Finally, I think that the opinion that succ wizard and guardian need to be rebalanced so that their strong points aren't as cancerous in group pvp is pretty common. My intention with this isn't just to make valkyrie stronger but more fun to play vs being a 1 trick pony reliant on terra nukes.


    Refer to some of the points above. I believe I have a strong case to say that damage overall is buffed.

    And I dont think that Guardian and assassins having tons of tons of damage is the issue they are primarily offensive classes after all. IMO I think the fact that they have so much range on their skills without losing any of the damage is the bigger problem. I feel like refocusing assassin classes' damage to smaller AoE skill but keeping it the same overall would make fighting against them in groups more fair, on the flip side they should get group utilities to help them remain relevant. Guardain imo just needs some split damage or reduced damage at further ranges for her larger attacks, with faster/more flexible weaker attacks to help her in 1v1.


    Finally I think the HoT is better than no heal at all. Like I said, it's an option which is designed to help you provide protection to allies even when you have to dive in and won't be near them, you can still use Puri and normal Elion's Breath for mid-combat heals. This is kind of my intent overall with the support buffs. To provide valk with way's to actively support her allies outside of emergency heals every once and a while. I want to strike a balance between support and offense and I feel like just calling these changes as "wonky ass support without any damage" really fails to recognize how much of a difference some of the offensive/utility buffs will make and how powerful things like damage modifier reductions, Reducing ally damage, and group super armor would be.
     
  5. Mjollnir

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    @Netreiam I appreciate the work, but it's way too many things, and frankly.. like this it won't lead anywhere.

    I keep my position: buff our block, give us one reliable protected disengage, some little QoL change here and there and we're done.

    Terra if freaking slow, the only good help it can have is a speed up in animation. (or protection during the whole casting). Nerfing its damage it's plainly bad, all other classes have similar spike damage skills, I don't see any reason to give up ours.

    PS: We did something alike on Valk's discord, in the past, I will ask Himawarin to link it here. Was a different time, game was a bit different, but ironically, was a good proposal.
     
  6. Gendouki

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    As requested, i will post the work done by the valk discord in compiling 33 pages of discord feedback into a readable sheet that we later submited to the feedback discord and have yet (to this day) to see any of the changes implemented or even mentioned.

    Valk suggestions from 2k18-2k19

    Valk discord eu moderator - himawarin
     
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  7. Legacina

    Legacina Valkyrie 63 EU

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    i think i gave that suggestion a read one day. wasnt really helpfull tbh. alot of useless junk. instead of fixing the core problems.
     
  8. Netreiam

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    If you think the suggestions themselves are bad then we can talk about why. Otherwise if you think they are good, what harm does supporting it do? What's the worse they can do, ignore it? That's been the case for 2 years and even the minimalist position of asking for a few things and the "good proposals" have been ignored.


    In regards to terra nerf, it's something I'm honestly a bit shaky on myself but I feel like it would be a good balance to all the other buffs. Being absolutely required to use 1 skill for good damage is pretty **** imo and I'd rather have a bunch of less used skills buffed (especially ones with protections)
     
  9. Mjollnir

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    I think I can see your your logic here, normally I wouldn't disagree, going for a nerf, if somehow it's compensated somewhere else, now this would be pretty sensible and logic, but doesn't really fit/work with these devs.
    Let's look at this class previous history: what do we see ? I count at least 3 major nerfs, let' s check compensation for all of them....mmm a whole bunch of NOTHING, followed by another bunch of USELESS nothing.

    This auto triggers an alarm in my brain, be extra cautious even in considering "giving up" something we currently have, too high chance to get back nothing to compensate. (like it has happens several times).

    The only left option is: they will really choke down a bit of our killing potential and in exchange, make us real tanks.

    Nah, at this point it's way too naive to even think about it. To be able to actually zerg tank, the resulting char would be impossible to kill in 1 v 1... Imagine the drama/salt this would raise...
    Result: they will remove our killing potential, but give us back a slight buff to some useless defensive trait, something like +5 insulting DR or the laughable Succession DP buff, which would actually change NOTHING. Now, that would be the real death of this class...

    So what's left ? We can't be tanks, we can't be DPS, give away something more and we won't even be lifeskillers anymore.

    Am I too salty ? Nah, I'm just being pragmatic.
     
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  10. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

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    Imo, for awakening:
    turn DLC into an iframe going backwards, FG w/resist going forward.
    remove the stiffness from promptness, leave the dlc-prompt float, add SA to promptness
    remove rmb counter, add FG for the first two hits, leave float unprotected on ferit
    Allow cel spear to be used in awakening without forcing you into preawakening. (So it can be used in both pre/awake)
    Make Wave of Light quicker to charge for the FG or a way to cancel into the charging. (Like using cel spear in awakening)
    Make RMB skill cancel for Hasti to proc ferit's flow fluxum and have hasti's SA linger into the flow. So the skill is only protected when used in combination with hasti, aside from that its still unprotected. (do not force it to override hasti>blitz, so it can still be a thing for chasing)
    ^
    This would give a protected kd, float, and stiffness, while letting skills flow better without too much give/take. Having actual defenses/protected CCs, could be pretty game changing, so probably a nerf in dmg. But not a **** ton, just enough to make up for the extra dmg being dealt. And hopefully removing any bs bug where going from awake>preawake or viceversa and getting cc'd, puts your weapon away or forces you into the wrong stance. Since prompt, dlc would be protected, and cel spear wouldn't force you into preawakening.
    Aside from that I think pre awakening needs to be reworked.

    For pre-awakening:
    Pretty much changing out all the useless **** skills that have no place in pve or pvp, and rework some of the skills to be more useful. Like how pre-awakening JoL is garbage, shining dash is near useless, glaring is useless, divine is useless, righteous charge being an attack is useless, just so many **** tier skills that don't help much. FG for movement is bad enough, but with 10s, 17s cds... lul. Charging slash when you can't even run lmao. Forward slash that interrupts the sharp light>just counter. Sideslash that is only used to make rmb sidestep quicker, aside from that, useless. Don't even get me started on kicks, shield strike, shield push, shield counter, especially skyward strike. >.< Skyward should have so much potential, keyword- should, but never find a point where its actually better or even more useful than another skill, even in succ. And it can proc the last hit of SoJ... -.-

    With pre awakening i couldn't even say what to do with what, theres too many skills that are useless and need to be changed/reworked. I do agree that skills shouldn't reset the cd while cooling down.
    And while we're at it, Rebam: Divine Descent.. another absolutely useless **** tier skill.
     
    #10 Muhaha, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
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  11. Netreiam

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    Yeah, sound logic. I went ahead and revised the post.
     
  12. ViktoryiaV

    ViktoryiaV Valkyrie 62

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    Misread something, if you got pinged, sorry.
    @Netreiam I don't quite understand your suggestions re. Just counter (removing first attack- do you mean no stiff on the first stab, or do you mean if you're already blocking or get hit by a non cc something, you could do a reactive instant counter like the 2 skills we have pre/awake - skip the first 2 stabs and go straight for the last/and more damaging combo hit, and otherwise use jc as a fast cc in the normal way?) and making JoL a ranged attack (do you mean something like witchard lightning storm/meteor shower followup from celestial spear range?)

    I personally really like having stiffness on sacrum ferit, both because timing that well and also sometimes with assistance of vaccuum or even just by merit of the forward movement the skill has, I've found a lot of use for it. I also like the knockback on blitz stab (in part due to how hasti can be turned really drastically to position for it, or how you can use it to cc from slight range due movement of the character, and the push effect it has on opponents (to move them into range of other skills), but your proposals to give the 2 skills a separate cooldown with situational uses are really interesting and sound like they'd be fun, dynamic and flow well.

    The recent changes to make sidestep after enslar faster, and enslar>verdict flow feel really really good, but the promptness cancelling hasti has inconveniently triggered due my sloppyness. How does everyone else feel about those?
     
    #12 ViktoryiaV, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
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  13. Netreiam

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    So the intent with Just Counter was to increase the damage:time ratio and make it more rewarding to follow through and use the entire skill instead of only the first hit (which is how most people use Just Counter if I had to guess) while also making it a more rewarding skill to actually counter with.

    So if you use it without being attacked first you would do the initial poke and then follow up with the last attack + flow.
    If you use it after being attacked in block, instead of doing the first attack, you skip to the last attack + flow and get potentially 3 hits of counter attack damage.

    And that comparison for JoL is exactly what I mean although it would still be able to be ranged without the flow.

    And my mentality with the sacrum suggestion is that Awakening is supposed to be the more aggressive spec focused on bigger AoEs and being better equipped for group fights.


    As for the recent changes. Side step after enslar was proven by to be the same speed as side step after shielding after enslar. Less key combinations, but not an actual change. prompt after hasti I've been able to use once or twice to catch a ranged class off-guard, but most people just retaliate with their protected CCs and that's an easy loss. Revelation flow after enslar is the only substantial change. Its not game changing, but it does let valk do a little more damage in group pvp which is nice.
     
    #13 Netreiam, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
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  14. Ciroc

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    dude I dont know what nodes or sieges you have been doing but you want buffs on the most useless skills and even iframe on shield chase.
    good one.
    seriously.
    Severing light, Shieldstrike, shield counter and shield push belong in the trash. Its not just the skills have no damage and no protection its more. The animation is **** and you gotta stand locked in one place.
    The list of hima has good laughs aswell, but I recommend the creator of this to get to higher tier pvp first and than address this once more.
    The only changes I really want is:

    Fix the stamina consumption and remove the bound on sancta and give it either fg / sa
    and reduce the DLC cd to 2 sec or even 1.5 sec.

    thats it for starters.
     
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  15. Netreiam

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    Did it ever occur to you I want buffs to useless skills exactly because they are useless? I'm pretty sure at least half of the reasons I have talk about how bad the current skills are. The point of this thread isn't just to make valk "viable", because she already is if you play as heal/succ/ult bot or a wanna-be assassin that tries to dash in and drop a quick BSR terra while nobody is looking. The point is to modernize a class created 4+ years ago and give it more fun and versatile ways of playing.

    If locking half the skills in your skill tree and being restricted to the few "good" ones brings you joy then go ahead. I really don't understand why you would want to keep useless skills the way they are, but whatever man.

    Also unsure why you wouldn't want I-frame on shield chase? It is probably a change that would have the most immediate impact.

    If you have actual criticisms of the proposals themselves and not just the fact that I think bad things should be made better (strange idea, I know) then go ahead and let me know.
     
    #15 Netreiam, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  16. Ciroc

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    did you check wtf they do before ? they dont have any damage, they lock you in position, they dont combo with anything? its worthless junk

    If you cant play with the current shield chase, I recommend rerolling. Cause at the end of the day they wont give that to SC.

    I dont actually wanna make list why each of the skills I mentioned is bad and should be either reworked completly or left untouched, cause just giving them more damage or protection or some nifty debuffs (that you proposed) wont change anything.
     
  17. Netreiam

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    That's my point though...the skills are useless as they are now. Which is why I want them buffed so that they aren't.

    And what do you mean by "if can't play with the current shield chase"? Are you saying that having valk's main evasive maneuver be a FG that is easily CC able by wonky hitboxes and is shortened to the point of not even moving you when hit is fine?

    There is a strong case for valk getting an I frame movement skill and shield chase is the best candidate because you can use it in both awaken and preawaken.
     
  18. Ciroc

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    Let me get that to you buddy, Valk is not an iframe class. Its not a sorc or a ninja. I know the weakness of shieldchase to well, you dont have to tell me.Its a git gud issue I assume.
    The proposed buffs to the garbage skills of pre awk are a joke and wont change anything. You dont even address the core problems of them, they dont combo with anything, dont have damage, and the severing light hp recovery? are you serious? You would rather pop a frenzy or beast draught in PVE and it has no place in PVP.

    Dont get me wrong I had my good laughs about your proposed buffs, they seem out of place like the korean devs put them into the game. Like the Sacrum Ferit crit%, not sure if you know what celestial spear does at the start of each combo but you know.

    [​IMG]
     
    #18 Ciroc, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  19. Netreiam

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    So I guess every other class is an I frame class then?

    Warrior, headchase
    Sorc: a lot
    Ranger: EES, wind step
    Zerker: shake off
    Tamer: evasion
    Musa/maewha:evasive stub arrow, chase off cd
    Witch/wiz: teleport
    Ninja/kuno: a lot
    DK: a lot
    Striker/Mystic: Flash step
    Lahn: a lot
    Archer: tactical strike
    Shai: Hop
    Guardian: Fierce disdain, frost slide

    Looks like literally every other class has a low cd I frame. Now what is your justification for valk not having an I frame? SA block maybe? Oh look even the other classes with enhanced shields have low CD I frames (with guardian, one of the closest classes to valk conceptually, having 2 on 3s cds)

    Most of the preawakening changes have "animation speed increase" of some sort because more speed = more DPS. If you read my post I laid out the reason why I chose to do that instead of just buffing damage numbers into the 1000s.

    For severing light specifically, 90 (3x the current amount) felt like a fair number given an animation speed increase. 540 HP recovery with an FG sounds like a decently useful skill. Maybe not gamebreakingly good, but useful enough to at least not lock.

    And the sacrum ferit buff address the fact that valk is reliant on crit buff but cannot use celestial spear in melee combat due to lack of protection. The buff would add a fairly protected crit buff at the cost of only half the effectiveness of spear.

    If you don't think I address the "core problems" of useless skills then what do you propose?
     
    #19 Netreiam, Apr 24, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  20. Legacina

    Legacina Valkyrie 63 EU

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    shake off got changed to SA 2 years ago.
    and i honestly couldnt care less about not having an iframe tbh

    back when lsa was a thing you had no need for it. cause you could just dodge every grab whenever you wanted. cause of way better stamina + protection thanks to lsa.
    one thing still has remained a problem. which is block itself. its still pure hot garbage.

    we constantly have to dodge grabs but are quickly limited by stamina
    we cant block for 2 sec. cause it will insta blow up against anything that has a bit of ap.
    we cant dash safely to dodge other cc's cause fg protection or non in most of our movement.
    we cant disengage far away easily, safely. cause there is no option

    everything we do puts is in some kind of dangerous situation basically.
    stand still - get grabed, get your block obliterated.
    move - get cc'd behind FG,

    i dont think any other class has this many issues in regards of surviving fights.
    most can just go in do whatever they want. and then go out again. 99% of the time protected. besides maybe shai... still suprised they didnt give at least her some better movement..

    fixing our block and giving our dashes better protection would solve alot of issues. im not talking about Perma FG + ''high resistance'' in all dlc + shield chase.
    if they would make pre and awak block stronger. having just a bigger FG radius unique to only our class. would make things alot more interesting.
    but getting cc'd cause some trash mystic spiral torpedos somewhere in your direction not even hitting you from behind is just ridiculous.

    i found myself having the least problem with stamina. unless its pve on low end spots...
    disengaging would be less of a problem if our block could survive longer without PA.
     
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