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What does the MMORPG community want?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by 2Cents, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. 2Cents

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    Press it once and never come back

    I'll give you a discount for $40.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Clandestine

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    Dynamic events that effect regions economies. Ie sausan raid altinova if they are not pushed back to their camps. If they raid altinova players in the mediah region are given a call to arms to fight off the raiding sausans. So group content for all regions and player levels. Reward people well for engaging in these map defences and allow players to take jobs like dailies to push back enemies. Better rewards instead of 1mill gold bar lmfao.
     
  3. Clandestine

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    No thanks
     
  4. Sibyyl

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    Don't disagree with you here. There seems to virtually no limit for someone to swipe and get ahead (tet accessories anyone?).

    On the flip side of it however, a lot of the pretty costumes and nice pets I got are because of people like that. I really like being able to "afford" more cosmetics and pets than I'm personally willing to swipe for - and I would prefer that side benefit remain.

    So choices.. choices..

    I prefer the p2w stay in the way it is.. idk. It is selfish of me to think so, especially since I don't care one bit about competitive pvp, or holding onto a grindspot.
     
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  5. Sibyyl

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    Everything you've described is part of a problem which gets worse as our time on the internet goes on. It comes as a result of our inability for patience and our constant appetite for instant gratification.

    People who thought like you did have destroyed EVE's classic subscription model (not for the better) and have effectively ended any sense of accomplishment from investing in specific skills to get to your ship piloting goals (thanks large alliances and RMT).

    I'm sure you'll continue to advocate for instant gratification, but I'm glad Pearl Abyss thinks exactly the opposite as you do (see PA's comments from recent Heidel Ball keynote).
     
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  6. Nyhver

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    I'll touch on two main points while noting the very typical problem of how fast or slow something should be, or long term goal and payoff vs. instant gratification and the inevitable downfall of value.

    I do like that you broach 'meaning' and value, as it were, because it needs to be talked about more especially when many that ruined WoW are the casuals, ( @Jannanomana no bully tho) that want instant gratification and even when they get what they want, they don't really get what they want, they wonder why the great kingdom is in ruins with their supposedly great changes.

    On top of what you say it's the PvP aspect and this is probably what will be the carrying force to 'market viability-- or popularity let's say-- instead of the PvE things, while classic and PvE difficulty + progression and more meaning than casuals things go tandem even if said in other words, another thing that really deserves looking at is the PvP. For me, and others I'm sure, PvP started going downhill around wrath, but really went downhill after that including notably changes like vanish for rogues, it went from a precarious ability that could be used skillfully, (reacting/predicting a CC like trinket>blind) to changing the mechanic fundamentally to what so many other people suggested because they didn't know, or weren't skilled, or were simply frustrated with the mechanic of being auto-hit, or what have you, out of vanish, so it was changed to "absorption if timed well & goes out of stealth typically" to "stay CCd in stealth for approx 5 seconds, but can't vanish and absorb abilities like before" which was a lot more stable, and casual, and less skillful, and less useful in those old vanish situations. All of this to say for one really important and skillful example, they took it and ruined it, the dynamics of rogue vs. rogue and being a duelist were at their height at 80 wrath of the lich king, with stable sap detection and a simple duel etiquette gentleman's agreement to stay near each other at the start to dual-opener sap, the RvR was easily some of the highest skilled, option-generating most fun that existed in WoW PvP.

    One of the more sad things on this related subject is that there was, and is, and probably will be people that are deniers of this claim-- which I've seen. "vanishing a blind is luck" while this can be elaborated on, such statements really have to be chalked up to ignorance. It is this same lack of understanding pertaining to skill that marinates ruin in anything involving skill.

    Now, Wrath had many things going for it that past or forward expansions didn't, Hydra the God priest existed in his pinnacle to Wrath thanks to Wrath, his skill would not have shown the same in any other expansion, (and the improvement by expansions while theoretical, did not happen and may not happen) but the fact of the matter is, much to the consternation of everything-is-subjective-believers Classic/vanilla was good up to Wrath, including burning crusade, for PVP and raids, it started becoming rather questionable around wrath especially with DKs being released, it was always a question of one abomination or another-- shamans were disgustingly strong while requiring little skill and effort in vanilla-- but despite the imbalance and RNG problems that persisted the game still had some PvP that was worthwhile, it still took mastery, and while typically slow-paced it still had bursts of speed and a lot of the things in the game actually mattered to a high extent for PvP, for some reason despite the game not intending to be well balanced or even high skilled for PVP, classic WoW PvP still compares well to other MMORPGs/games. It may very well be another MMORPG version of smash bros. melee. Your movement mattered, your camera movement mattered, your spacing mattered, your timing mattered, your predictions mattered, your mechanical skill even mattered, (obviously not to the high extent of BDO/fighter games though) your knowledge mattered, your gear choice mattered, class mattered a little bit too much, but there's plenty of wrong about Classic, but that's also what made it good in some sort of weird paradoxical way, you should master the class to your abilities, play according to situation and then maybe with a gross 'rng resist' you can actually win vs. a counter-class. This same type of imbalance is part of the charm of classic, from class imbalances to anything else, you could systematically take a warrior, for instance, apart as any class, he'd do auto attacks, not be able to do much else, and die, and then the very next fight he could charge, mortal strike, get a sword proc, and HoJ proc, pull crits and then you'd go from about full health to dead instantly. The bravado that comes with winning because you win, whether due to mostly skill or luck, will be used against you by the system, it's just a matter of time. This also could be a primary reason why so many people liked PvP, not only were they allowed to equip these cool items that weren't so easy to get, that also looked cool, but they'd be fighting opponents that perhaps had even better, more cool equipment, both the situation and RNG allowed them to be the David against Goliath, if rarely, at times instead of never. Which is cool.

    I played retribution paladin and paladin was one of the worst 1v1 classes- the only exceptions was the more gimmicky but less anti-kite, (no repentance, no holy shock to have more ranged threat, and has some big problems) reckoning spec which while good vs. melee still had severe limitations, whether vs. ranged or in premade vs. premade BGs/group pvp- so most people should win vs. me, circumstance omitting, (e.g. big gear advantage) but with skill or even circumstantial awareness and advantage you could win. e.g. cheesing mages/casters with LoS, your ability to bait and move and do everything else requires skill, and vs. mages with the element of surprise perhaps you can win, but typically vs. good mages you don't have much leeway, they counter you and there's just potentially a little push and pull play between you two, that's not to say there isn't vs. non-top tier mages. Here's an example:

    around 11:34 he's fighting a really geared retribution paladin, who wasn't known as being particularly good but he sure thought he was, and if you're playing a 'paladin like normal' you'll be about this skill level, you'll do things roughly right and maybe you'll be one of those hoards of people claiming "paladins don't have high skill cap" while not knowing what skill is. 'pretty sure this guy is reckoning, and the push-pull is the very small moments he gets within melee range, he's either going to keep auto attack up or isn't, whether he is or isn't is one of the primary mind games in that MU, if he auto attacks and it gets wasted on ice block for instance, wasted damage, he has to build more stacks, probably won't even live until he gets the +4 reckoning stacks, which is why you at least want to think about not having auto attack up at all times and being mindless.

    If you'd like to see how skilled paladins, (or classic) can be my BDO forum name should ring a bell. I also recommend my friend Happygilmore, a really skilled rogue.



    But this I think is why classic won't take off, the pvp is a version of MMORPG pvp that probably won't resonate for most people, and the skill is out of sight for a lot of people and a lot of people probably won't enjoy it for any long period of time because in my estimation enjoying the PvP for long duration requires something more than what most people have. It relates to the quote from Two-Tu but either you're happy with that state or you're not. You're the battle junkie PvPer or you aren't, I'm afraid the death knell for Classic WoW already happened the same way fighting games aren't the premier games & esports games and it's instead perhaps other odd things-- MOBAs. This all is tied to the question of progression. Classic WoW with anything changed moves to that extent to which it was changed, a small departure still means Classic WoW has most of what made it classic WoW, but the bigger changes mean it'll only be classic WoW in name only, it is at least now if not before that you have to think of the question of progression and its role in WoW and other games, good and bad. It should stand to reason that with progression past what was in classic already, any future changes will not be classic WoW, it cannot have more 'progression' or else it'd be quasi-classic WoW, maybe better, maybe worse. But we're being told it's Classic WoW. Classic WoW should have 0 changes or else it'll probably follow the same path that retail did, some people don't see this as a real danger and it's a shame.

    Retail has problems both related to game design and progression fundamentally. Most MMORPGs share this problem, when you keep adding things what you have is a endless journey that never stops, but your problem is usually too much accumulation, (abilities) and the fact that you're doing the same old thing just in a quasi-new way, you keep grinding out the dungeons or PvE content up to the top raids, replace your gear, wait until the new expansion and repeat.

    The alternative is that you don't keep repeating the pseudo-new of 'progression' but then you're left with repeating what is in the game. Which is anything if you enjoy it, or if it's in the game, (lifeskilling, repeating PvE) but primarily PvP. The most challenge and innovation with just the right match of familiarity is the chord struck with proper PvP, (not badly designed systems) brought by human players, it is the same rules, (pvp system) with potential mix ups and new things, (items, class tech, etc.) that makes PvP the most challenging and fun but also a familiar old friend. The human element also brings interesting rivalry that doesn't exist in non-human things, it's rather simple to admit it's possible in the near future for a robot to out-perform a human at any given task, including being faster and stronger and efficient, but it is more impersonal and not quite as impressive as if a human was at the same functional pinnacle. It is maybe this flashy pursuit of skill, (that does have ties in efficiency but it's not the same thing) that is a indelible mark of humanity and part of what makes it special.

    I'm aware not everyone is the same, but I'm one of those who also got bored of the repeating-so-called-new-progression of expansions, and I usually didn't like how they change PvP.

    Riddle me this, what is the purpose of endless progression? It is not sustainable and doesn't make sense on a fundamental level. I will agree that of course it should be there and had to be at the start, the innovations and base idea was there for anything good in the world, from fire to books, but there's a big disconnect with the innovation and big ideas of today and tomorrow and what the underlying implication is of endless progression. For anyone who does agree with endless progression I'd like you to help me to understand the rational or even functional meaning to such a puzzle, if progression is a good thing fundamentally then why are we not simply endlessly adding changes to all games at all times including infinite abilities and levels and whatnot? If it's a fundamentally good idea we should. That's the problem. This is why it doesn't make sense.

    The problem lies wherein if you have 'progression' you have a problem with repetition. Just in a different form.

    The problem is if you don't have 'progression' you still have a problem of repetition.

    The problem is that maybe we can never escape repetition

    maybe that's not so bad.

    There's a lot of truth to that, but it's also wrong to dismiss some of the more elitist hardcore things, (whether classic or not) as being mostly or only nostalgia and romanticization. There's a lot to like about classic wow even compared to other MMORPGs, it's not all nostalgia.
     
    #26 Nyhver, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  7. t4mpel

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    What the community want?

    Person one: xyz is ****, redesign
    Person two. we need group content
    person three. Buff class xyz
    person four: nerf class xyz
    person five: game is to much p2w
    person 6: give more money for outfit selling
    person 7: remove RNG enhancing
    person 8: adjust marketplace
    person 9: change daily login
    person 10: remove 2nd loadingscreen
    person 11: buff area xyz
    person 12: increase droprate in xyz
    person 13: change pvp system
    person 14: change pve system
    person 15: bring out class xyz
    person 16: to much useless content
    person 17: no content
    person 18: xyz got his, why abc does not get this

    to be continued
     
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  8. Two-Tu

    Two-Tu Musa 62 EU

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    Say, you are the sole ruler of a country and are treating your people like garbage, and each and every day, you get like 100 complaints about e.g. not giving out enough food supplies. does it make the complaints any less meaningful or would it rather be more reasonable to think that you, the ruler, are the actual problem and not the people and their complaints?
     
    #28 Two-Tu, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  9. t4mpel

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    You simply do not understand the habit of mankind: There is always something to complain, no matter what. If u solve one problem someone will raise hands and start with another one. A ruler is human and not god who can make everything perfect asap. You will never fullfil every wish. And a lot of people just do complain to complain. Even if u work ahrd for the people they will find something what is not good. And if u have millions of players there is a ton of stupid questions what can be solved by themselves in a minute. But no blame everything around. Even if u have 100 employees who workin on that, its just not doable.And then you have this special com who cries about every chite and everyone clamis his problem is the most important one. So if i give my best to help and its not enough i have no regret, more like unthankful peasants.
     
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  10. GreyRebel

    GreyRebel DarkKnight 62 EU

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    Are you sure thats what the community wants ?
    Keep in mind the whole gaming community doesnt necessarily think like you :)
    For example
    "
    • Evened out slow progression from start 2 finish
    • Long term goals
    • Value in "playing" the game
    • Earning their status vs free handouts
    "
    With these said , i think your perfect game , wouldnt last a year , coz you want a game if you join 6 month earlier than someone you always be superiour to that player .
    I think what community want is fun and by boring long term life burning contents , the gaming community wont be happy . The game u have in mind max ages 1 year and dies coz no new player will join
     
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  11. Nexius

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    I agree with a point of yours in that I too wish there were a bit more diversity in how players could enjoy the game, moreso a traditional PvE approach that was enriched by the story, helped tell the story and had interesting mechanics that made the content challenging with some vanity goodies sprinkled as milestones or mementos. Aside from that though I think there's a disconnect here that resonates with players who havent yet come to terms with the identity of the game. The entire process and aim of the game is to continuously progress. It's lack of PvE content doesnt excuse that aim as both could coexist in a quite healthy manner, though the entire point IS progression. BDO is unique in this aspect as there is such a grind to actually get hardcap that you probably will never achieve it before a major update occurs which fundamentally changes the game or vastly increases that hardcap.

    So when you play this game and you try to do so in a similar fashion as you would WoW for instance, it would be wise for you to steel yourself for a much longer "progression" period than you've ever experienced before, because it is far more brutal and far longer of a process. That shouldnt change, there are benefits that come with that, despite being RNG gated, micro-transaction riddled, etc it still remains a very solid game. It still remains unique and honestly may remain that way for a much longer time. So when setting goals in this game in particular they tend to need to be far more grand. "I want to hit softcap" is a decent goal for beginners, but once you hit that, the next goal honestly is far more subjective to how you really feel about the game up until that point. If you want to continue playing you will need a new goal for progression and it's going to have to be a steep one at that.

    When I hit softcap a year and a half ago I slightly bemoaned it because I knew that despite being very up there in gear compared to most of the population, I couldnt really rest if I wanted to stay near the top somewhat. I faltered through that process as well even and it cost me weeks of valuable progression. I could have even more gear by now but you know life happens. But the goal to continue progressing keeps me playing. The ultimate goal set for me is the best offensive set possible as a sorc. Which entails pretty much full Pen and an assortment of other absurd things that I probably wont reach before new things are introduced to skew that end goal somewhat. If I keep at it, who knows I may get there sooner than I expected. but thats the game and thats the underlying goal, to reach the ultimate final form, even though the bar is continually pushed higher and higher by other players and sometimes the devs. It can be tiresome but imo it's worth it if you enjoy it and can manage. Again I personally feel as if this game definitely needs more story related content, specifically more cinematic cut scenes, ACTUAL dungeons and boss fights related to the story. Instanced content we can go into and maybe even revisit with varying difficulties to accommodate all appropriate gear levels. Just standard things you expect from an MMORPG. But aside from that, the game has a well fleshed out identity and it neednt change.
     
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  12. Catastigma

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    Say * mmorpg community* its not the right think. Since the real community get parasited with player that are not supose to play this genre of game.


    Most of people here, just want another moba/Dungeon crawler. Not a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME
     
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  13. 2Cents

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    Your premise is wrong and full of faulty talking points.
    • For example you will never consider a newer player that is exited to play the game would play much more than a veteran that is burned out.
    The specific details like that are just covered up by the talking point "they will never catch up".
    • You won't take into account minor changes will make it easier for new players. For BDO there are several hundred of these beyond just double exp. Daily Double, new drops, higher equipment, black stone increase, marni, etc.
    Instead of accepting these important details people lazily just say "they will never catch up".

    This isn't theory either. Imagine massive amounts of players rushing to play a game that is out dated and over 15 years old because it has these aspects.

    Wouldn't last a Year just shows your lack of knowledge in the industry. Many games that DID exactly this lasted for DECADES.
    • Everquest
    • Tibia
    • WOW
    • Asheron's Call
    • Lineage II
     
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  14. 2Cents

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    You don't need PVP in a well constructed MMORPG. PVP only attracts the worst aspects of children. You just attract and incite the trash seen on the web/ social media, trolls, griefers, the lowest of humanity.

    Everquest didn't need PVP because it had challenging content. What people are looking for isn't PVP. It's a challenge. MMO PVP is just a gimmick when they don't actually produce good content. The harsh environment of older games forced players to band together for survival. You know playing together like it was an MMORPG. Not a bunch of arguing, racist spam, trolling, you get from PVP.

    If you want PVP, play a game designed for it. There are 100's of them, NONE of them are MMO's.
     
    #34 2Cents, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
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  15. Raven Croft

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    I want the hard cap to go away and make leveling more fun and interesting. I want the pearl store outfits to be hell of a lot cheaper and I want Climbing to be available soon as well. I want a better Bo staff class and I want more mounts like a black panther or bear or those you see in WoW. I think that BDO ought to open up to more possbilities within the game itself. They can learn a lot from WoW and how they make gaming fun and interesting. Right now I surely do not want to lvl up due to the 6hrs of grinding and hardly level up fast enough beyond lvl cap 56. I also want more reaveling outfits for my female classes and I want Tamer to be frickin taller as well. Thats it for now.

    P.S I think that if leveling becomes so much more easier for everyone, then everyone will have fun and they will be happier and more satisfied and more skill points / powers to use etc. I also think that grinding can kill the game, due to the hard work and so on. I play the game by myself and grinding is not in my time right now. I am not good in enhancing at all and I bet a lot of people feel the same way. So what was said in Heidelball which was to make BDO fun again, had better be true, just dont wait years to make it happen.

    :)
     
  16. Nagasaki

    Nagasaki Ninja

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    WEHHWEEHHWEHHHH LIKE WOW.
    I hate it when people say “like WoW”.

    Please, you left WoW because you don’t want WoW.
    Stop asking to change this game into a direction that you left.
    You might hate it when people te you to “go back to WoW” but we equally hate it when people want to change it into WoW.
     
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  17. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    Sorry? Not supposed to play? Anyone that buys the game is supposed to play rofl.
     
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  18. Raven Croft

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    You better not be referring that hawk calling my way dude...I never played WoW and you surely dont need to be an angry cry baby grown up kid towards me...Bad Mojo that is.......
     
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  19. FadedSky

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    Now i stared playing WoW Vanilla after years of ignorance. I cant believe i spend over 2 years in this grindy p2w cashgrab game.

    Just pure lack of content in bdo compared to 15 year old game is amazing.

    Questing and famring solo is almost imposible and pushing players to help each other to benefit even more and level faster. Its just that simple to make a good content that was done before and proved to be successfull.

    I think Classic will show other developers how huge is demand for actually good mmo.
     
    #39 FadedSky, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2019
  20. GreyRebel

    GreyRebel DarkKnight 62 EU

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    i like how guild wars 2 did it . that all the effort and work u do in the game is for fashion and some different stats .
    on the other hand , wow isnt a game which gives what you want , in wow every 2 years all your hand work becomes nothing , the gear you worked too hard on to get from heroic 25 man raids , will be less than the net expansion's trashloot , in my opinion gw 2 did it better , so u get ur best gears and in each expansion you get other ways to improve your char ( not only by gears ) the other ways can be mastery , new skills , new passives and ofc new fashion
     

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