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Why do we need 2 Deserts? Pepega Abyss

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by ripit, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. woots

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    Well, even if it didnt had a "desert" in that "game" name, it would still be compare to BDO because that's the same engine, but updated.
    At see the cutsence that's the same characters used in BDO with face change ( they already ave the tools for that with their editor )
    i would bet many asset come from BDO, so like the sort of Bheg
    Its also going to be another "action rpg"

    to make a game in a such short period of time, most of the "game" necessary come from BDO. i guess the most "work" put in it is to run somes gameplay change / tweak what they already made with BDO
     
  2. Smileybones

    Smileybones Ranger 62 NA

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    Any technical evidence of this claim ?

    Protip: your behind isn't a valid source of technical evidence.
     
  3. Maevynn

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    I'd actually say those characters are entirely new models. Look at the hair and how it moves. The teeth are entirely different (probably to better support so much speaking). I noticed it right when it was revealed:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Teeth are entirely different in model and texture.
    [​IMG]
    Skin textures different, facial hair models & textures different, expression morphing different, Crimson Desert face is higher-polygon (count the angles on the nose), hair is far more detailed than anything we have.
    [​IMG]
    Again, facial hair is really different and more detailed. Skin shines differently than BDO's does.
    [​IMG]
    CD seems to lean a bit more on the potential of their specular map (what reflects light/shines—focus on the lips, the nose, the forehead) to add depth this time and not just their bump map (essentially painting on more detail that isn't really there, that's less intensive on a graphics system to render — it's hard to explain, but basically it makes it look like there's more detail on the model than there is), as well as sub-surface scattering (how light can go through an object, in the case of skin it makes it look red because of the blood underneath! Look at how the skin becomes red where his nose goes into shadow.)

    Overall it looks more like the AAA game methods of using a combination of diffuse, specular, bump, and sub-surface scattering textures—and so-on. I usually stare at the lips to get an idea, because they change the most dramatically on the face (in my opinion). For instance, the lips in Red Dead Redemption 2 look more like CD's lips than BDO's lips. This lines up with PA's claim that they've, at the very least, messed with the lighting of the engine a lot in a way that BDO's engine may just not be built to handle. They've also done a presentation to show what they've been working on, you can download the powerpoint here under "Practical Dynamic Lighting for Large-Scale Game Environments".​
    Most of this stuff here can be done with texture changes and a different character lighting system than BDO's engine uses. As far as I'm aware BDO's engine hasn't ever shown to be capable of sub-surface scattering—but I could be wrong about that, just have never seen it in such a plainly visible way. I think they use different models in the cutscenes than in-game though, which is actually very common in games—particularly story-focused ones. The Macduff shown in the background of the Crimson Desert page uses something similar (though not quite the same) to the BDO facial hair, models, and lighting. Still looks great, just closer to BDO than any of the cutscenes do. Even there you can still see some model/texture/lighting differences, but they're less stark and built-for-cutscene.

    Something I've found fascinating about Crimson Desert is that people are remembering BDO as looking better than it is. As I put it to a friend: "I think it's because BDO's still gorgeous for even a good-looking single-player game already, so PA one-upping themselves is both impressive and doesn't have as massive of an impact, and is actually kind of less noticeable to most people."
    This I can agree with 100%. As one game news site put it though: " I guess Pearl Abyss is planning on treating this and any future flagships the same way Square treats Final Fantasy: sequels in name and theme."

    I think that so much overlap is because of exactly that. PA said that it's more-or-less based on BDO's world but also isn't BDO's world. It's like a reinterpretation of BDO's world with different lore. So, I think assets have been reused and reskinned/remodeled to suit CD—but it being somewhat similar to BDO's world is kind of the point of CD.

    I definitely agree that the comparisons to BDO will happen no matter what, I think part of the point is to compare it to BDO so that you can see where it's the same—but also where it's very different. Naturally though, because we haven't seen much (and people kept being told by YouTubers and game news sites that it'll probably be a BDO2) I think people are picking up on the similarities more than anything.
     
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  4. Asterotis

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  5. woots

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    considering they upgraded the engine... having somes changes here and there for the character / added somes bones for the face for better mouth expression

    That's a logic thought at see most of the famous engine that are interation of a preview version of it.
    Unreal engine, Cryengine, frostbite Apex.. etc etc.


    But if you want to think they build an new engine from the ground in 2years + build the "whole" ( whatever what they already created for it ) in 2 years or so.
    I can only assume you live in your dreams :)
     
    #45 woots, Nov 18, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  6. Two-Tu

    Two-Tu Musa 62 EU

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    It's a trailer with no actual ingame footage. Don't let yourselves get fooled man.
     
  7. Maevynn

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    They actually said it's all in-game cutscenes rendered in their engine in interviews in Korean, it's not cinematics—but it is cutscenes. They'll swap in higher detail models/textures, probably have better character lighting, all that jazz. The environments, however, probably look about the same as they'll look in-game since, while you can swap out the environment and all its textures as well — hardly any players will notice a comparatively slight bump up in detail in something like tree bark in the background while a character is talking to them.

    But the characters almost definitely won't look exactly the same from cutscene-to-gameplay, we can see that difference between the background art of Macduff here, and the in-game cutscene here with better lighting/textures. I am really curious as to what things will look like in gameplay, but we did genuinely get a peek into what their new engine can do if you want to believe their word on it.
    I had a longer post typed out but I'll just summarize with this:
    • People usually don't use bones for animating this kind of stuff, they use something called 'morphs' which you can see in action here @ 1:32:

      • BDO also uses morphs already, though they definitely had to make tons of new ones for CD.
    • To get the differences they have in the cutscene faces, it's not as simple as adding new morphs — they'd need new models, associated wrinkle maps with the morphs, and so-on.
    • It's easier, for a lot of reasons, to make a new model than to just change around an old one. A face for animation is basically a bunch of circles made up of lines of squares. You have to make sure these circles are detailed enough.
    • The models/textures/effects they're using in the in-game vs. cutscene models seem to be different—basically every AAA game does this. I'm willing to believe that the in-game characters may be updated BDO models, but even then it's much easier to go into a 3d program and edit their shapes rather than have it be the BDO morphing tool to make them look different. Nobody would do that because after a certain point you can't shift a face to look different without looking messed up/stretched out, it's why every class in BDO has a different head model and face texture instead of just being BDO face morph tool change of another class. The BDO customization tool is powerful, but it's nowhere near that powerful.
    • How BDO faces are made has actually changed over the years. The Striker, Mystic, Archer, and Shai have more realistic eye models than the other classes, with a pupil set back in the eye and a shiny transparent 'lens' over it. If they make entirely new face models for new classes with new 3d features that other classes don't have, they're probably going to make entirely new face models for a new game.
      • [​IMG] vs [​IMG]
      • See how one pupil (the black circle in the middle of the eye) looks like a sticker on a sphere, and the other looks like an actual hole? That's Sorceress vs. Shai. Shai got more realistic eyes.
     
  8. Rinnagans

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    Idk how people promoting a game base on a trailer
     
  9. Asterotis

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    Remember Anthem?

    lolyeah.
     
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  10. Rinnagans

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    I remember call of duty hype train only to derail into a train wreck lol
     
  11. Maevynn

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    Yeah, I'm personally waiting until I see more to actually decide anything about it. We haven't really seen any gameplay, just cutscenes—and not even from the MMORPG side of Crimson Desert. I have my hopes for it, but I'm personally waiting until I have something concrete in my hands to decide what I want to do with it. I'm very interested, but waiting for more info. I wish that they'd done some big English interviews to at least give us an idea of what the game will even be.

    Right now everyone is just imagining their personal best game (or personal worst game) over what's actually just... a blank canvas. Many, many people are going to end up disappointed at this rate. Or pleasantly surprised, if they thought it'd be the worst thing ever and it actually ends up being pretty cool.
     
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  12. Two-Tu

    Two-Tu Musa 62 EU

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    I wouldn't jump to conclusions though. Bioware's Anthem showed us how trailers with "ingame footage" can be much different from the actual ingame graphics.
     
  13. woots

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    Considering you are most likely aware you start from a HP model to end with "LP" model for a game they could perfectly just grab their initial HP model then apply the necessary change / improovement.

    And even if they just recreated a whole new model, with their morphing system they most likely just need one male, one female and "only" create haircuts etc,
    or just" new faces

    ^^
     
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  14. kakodaimonos

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    [​IMG]

    AC: Odyssey was at this stage pretty much a year ago.
    Not sure what all the hype is about in terms of graphics.
     
  15. Maevynn

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    While that's definitely true and many games downgrade from their 'in-game graphics' trailers to the actual game, PA has thus far been extremely consistent with what we saw in BDO/BDO Mobile/Shadow Arena/etc. trailers and what we got. Obviously SA is essentially the BDO engine so that's less important, and BDO Mobile was based on the BDO engine, but PA so far has been pretty good about not showing us supposed 'in-game' footage that then ended up looking worse. I also think the only reason it looks good is because it's cutscenes—I don't think the actual gameplay will look like that.

    We'll see if the trend continues, though, since this is definitely a new experience with a new engine they're messing around with and they may not realize yet that they have to dial things back.
    The BDO morphing system is a bit weird to try to apply things to and is actually more limited than people give it credit for. You can always tell someone's class based on specific points on the model, because no matter what you do they'll always have the same normal maps, the same textures, the same shaped nostrils, similarly shaped eyelids, etc. If you know what to look for you can always tell within a few seconds what class someone is using. It's a powerful tool when you know how to use it, but it'll sometimes take you 10+ hours of just sitting there fiddling with things — and then when the character morphs to make an expression it looks extremely screwed up because the expression is intended for the original settings. You end up with things like the inside of the 'mouth bag' mesh poking out of the cheeks when they open their mouths, their smiles being too wide, a part of their face that was only supposed to subtly widen widening dramatically because you messed with the scale of it, and so-on.

    A good example of how limited it actually is can be shown in trying to do something really dramatic with a character's face — like making a Musa look like Shaquille O'Neal. If you're going to make a celebrity recreation of a character, you first need to find a character's face who suits their general features, which is why some celebrities 'work' in BDO, and others are harder to make. Every class in BDO has a unique head model, which has given us a lot of options, but it still has massive limitations in what we can actually do. If PA were to just morph everyone's face from 1 model, we'd see lots of stretched out/squished textures and so-on. I think that all of the 'important' CD NPCs they've shown have been their own unique models. They probably used the same 'base model' but then edited it in a 3d program, gave them their own textures, and so-on. Otherwise, they'd have to recreate the morphs for every model which is just unnecessarily time consuming. But, that's also what most companies do.

    They've started giving important story NPCs unique faces in BDO already, this elf uses a model we've never seen before:

    [​IMG]

    The orc that they've shown in CD is definitely 100% an entirely new face as well and animates just as well as the rest of them.

    You're definitely right with the HP > LP model, and how the LP model could be BDO's though—I was thinking that but didn't want to get too wordy about it. I think the in-game model could be BDO's, or they might've just made a new one. Once you have a 'base' to work off of, it isn't exactly hard to make new faces by sculpting a new HP model out of it, fitting the LP model to that HP model, and applying the new 'bump map' to get details from the HP model.
    There are definitely games that look the same or better, but just because someone else has reached that level before doesn't mean it isn't good. I also think part of the reason people are freaking out is that they see it and hear that CD is an MMORPG. But I think people are mistaking what we're seeing. I don't think that the graphics they've shown off are in an MMO at all and are only single-player campaign cutscenes, which can afford to be more graphically intensive for both reasons (single-player and cutscene). I think the actual gameplay will look simpler. Still gorgeous, maybe a significant bump up from BDO, but simpler. There's no way they can keep that level of graphics 24/7, let alone with 100 other people on the screen who have the same level of graphical intensity.

    But, it's still very surprising to see a Korean company making something that looks so Western. You can tell there's a big difference in the face designs when you compare CD's faces with BDO's most similar ones:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Compared to everything PA has made before, that kind of stylistic change is fascinating in my opinion. PA mentioned they want to appeal to a 'global audience' more with CD and be influenced less by appealing to domestic (Korean) audiences like they are in BDO, and the more 'realistic' style was probably a part of that. Most of PA's revenue (BDO Mobile, BDO PC) actually still comes from Asia (71%), so they may be hoping for CD to be their big push into the Western market:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Corrus

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    Honestly, Crimson desert is pissing me off big time. Instead of improving bdo and fixing so much stuff and giving us something worthwile, they come up with this stupid new game cause they don't care. Greedy company
     
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  17. Asterotis

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    A lot of people complaining don't seem to see the bigger picture here.
    Technology/Engines/games have limitations, and in order to learn/improve from past limitations/games, these old things can't be focused on.
    What I want to see from Crimson Desert are things they promised to improve with BDO and more, and with how fast the newest engine was conceived by them in 3-4 years (Those billions, thanks to BDO and it's mobile counterpart may have a hand in that) I'm not hyped for the game, but more curious of where the criticisms of BDO will have an effect in Crimson Desert's development.
     
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  18. Maevynn

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    Very good points!

    PA did mention that CD is more-or-less the culmination of what they've learned through developing BDO, but only time will tell if they actually learned the lessons they should've:
     
  19. Corrus

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    Back to playing ESO. At least zenimax won't abandon their "precious" game for a shitty new one.
     
  20. Khruk

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    Isn't it obvious? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
     

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