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Why pay to win?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by easypr0, Aug 5, 2019.

  1. WinterMilla

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    That moment when a person hits the point home, but still misses the swing some how.
     
  2. Gun_Runner

    Gun_Runner Gun_Runner 62 NA

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    I was not manipulated in the slightest. I know what I was buy and why and have zero regrets for any of my purchases. I will continue to purchase for convenience or cosmetic reason in the future. There are many pay for convenience items in the cash shop to help shorten the long grinds in game and I have no issues using any of them as I see fit.

    You and I have clearly different view on the cash shop system here. If you don't like it, don't use it. That is your choice. I do like it and hope as new content is released and the game updates roll out more items are added to the cash shop.

    Great example in real life, Toll Express Lanes. You have the option to pay to have access to a faster express lane at an added cost to shorten the time of your commute to work. So is it wrong for cities/states to offer Toll Express Lanes?
     
  3. Lord_Xenon

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    Posting nonsense as argument to win is still false.
    Why do I need a max out inventory/area? For nothing! For what buying valks? Especially for those not enhancing? Wasted potential.
    Kama and grindbuff? For what? That you sit around cooking???
    For what the extra weight? To sit around cooking?

    Why should I give up due nonsense arguments? The game isn't P2W due the alternatives given within the game.

    The problem with the list is, that it's to some extend huge guesswork how to rate it. I can give further commentation, but nothing change.

    This is a presentation of incompetence. Ingame you can get a set for movement bonus. Then you can get 2 crystal for +30s breath time and a mask for additional +15s. With that huge extra you can do it. And your exploit suggest even another method. So where is the advantage left for the swimsuit user?

    The next blatant lie. I never encountered a game where there is no limit for stuff etc. It's just a basic thing. It boils down to a basic sense. Noone need to hoard 10576878676978 items. Therefore noone need to have that much space for nothing. It's to focus on things instead of doing everything false.

    When you say 4*4*4 does that mean that the second tier need 4 different items or does it mean that second tier mean 16 different items for just 1?
    If it's the first, then it shows incompetence tbh.
    First you cook the first tier. Then you cook the second tier from the first.
    4 for tier 2 a --> 5 slots.
    When you are finished, the rest goes to storage/CMP/wagon.
    Then the next 4 for tier 2 b --> 6 slots.
    Again rest goes to storage etc.
    Then the next 4 for tier 2 b --> 7 slots.
    Repeat.
    .
    .
    .
    Then you use the 4 tier 2 for the first tier 3a --> 5 slots
    Repeat steps from tier 2.

    In the end, you may have oh 8 slots at max used for cooking with brain. Even when you have left all tier 2 in your inventory, it's at max 20 slots or not?
     
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  4. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 61 NA

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    The way you defend this monetization practice, according to you, simply driving the car to point B is using the car wrong.
    You must purchase the XM radio subscription, and any future microtransactions they decide to add further down the road for the engine to work is what your defending.
     
  5. dobe

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    Whatever...You forgot that part i wrote i'm not complaining meaning i have no issue(minus sometimes ) ,also you didnt count byproducts on crafting and i only needed 15 spaces at a time because of wholesale crafting.But the issue is not on crafting,meh you didnt understood that
     
  6. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    You can fool yourself but you cannot fool everyone. If the game was not designed to frustrate people into spending money you would not have needed to buy these convenience items at all.
    Buying an outfit so your alt looks different or buying a pet or a mount skin so you have a different look is a lot different to buying several pets to smash together so you get loot more efficiently, or buying a ghillie to give you the ability to hide your name and give you buffs against the desert, buying a costume so you can process direct from the warehouse is different than buying something to look nice. Buying the swim outfits so you can circumvent the poor swimming is also different.
    You are spending the money willingly as did I when I bought my shark suit. The difference between us is that I bought it even while knowing the manipulation done to make me need to buy it.
     
  7. Khondo

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    I support the game BDO. It's playstyle and development. It's a game I really enjoy to play and has given me years of enjoyment. This "monetization practice" as you put it is a business model and is very successful. If lots of people are willing to play BDO in it's current form what is the issue? Like I said in another post, this is 21st century gaming, there is a big market out there filled with lots of different types of people. BDO caters for many of those people. Why would they want to change it? So once again I will say, why are you still here if you obviously don't like the game BDO?
     
  8. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    I am not going to reply to your first point because I have no idea what you are trying to say except that some people do max out a regions storage and also have tons of wagons in stables

    For swimming everything you say a non paying player can use so to can the person that has the shark suit(except the mask).Yes they can have the crystals in their boots and use the food buffs and have the extra advantage of their faster swimming and more underwater time than you. The exploit is not mine it is one that people have posted to say you do not need the shark suit. To me it is an exploit and should be avoided.

    Your argument on hoarding stuff is mute because you should have mentioned that in point one because you are talking about the same subject. However just because you do not hoard dies not mean others do not. Some people ( not me) are hoarders. Some people may be collecting a lot of processing mats because they are yet to decide what they want to focus on, some may keep every accessory they get for when they want to enhance, some may just like to keep every relic stone they get because they do not stack you need more storage. Some may farm and the seeds do not stack and as there is a limit to what can be kept in the warehouse they may need more storage. Last but nit least some people are just hoarders.
    The game is pay to win.
     
  9. Khondo

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    Yes you made a decision and good for you. Everyone is in the same boat, they make their own decisions on whether they want to spend money or not. Why is everyone so uptight about a company supplying a product that has other products you can buy linked to the first product? If you don't like the product make another decision and don't buy it or move away from that product. Don't hate the company because you make a decision to buy it and then regret it later. Obviously the rest of us are happy to continue with the product, whether we spend money or not.
     
  10. Gun_Runner

    Gun_Runner Gun_Runner 62 NA

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    You don't know me, what I have bought exactly or not, when I bought it or how much I have spent total. You don't know my budget or history of online gaming. So to presume anything about me is foolish. I don't buy things because there is a "manipulation done to make me need to buy it". I buy things I like or want to get. Different reasons for different items. For example with current fishing event, Splat Fishers clothes are something I bought because I liked them, not because I need them. Fishing level, I am +5 without it so nope. Swimming speed, my Sharksuit is better. Jump height... does anyone really care about that stat very much.

    I think the real reason your so upset here is because people like me and others can afford to buy things in the cash shop as we please. This might give us a slight advantage over you, but you have the same ability to buy the same items if you have the finances to do so. If you can not afford to use the cash shop that is not the communities fault nor the publishers.

    There is nothing wrong with our current cash shop other then, as a customer I would love to see more sales and more items added to it for us. Ship skins would be awesome. This is a live MMO that receives weekly maintenance, updates, support, has servers to host ect. ect. The initial base price of the game is only $9.99 and over half the year they have sale of 50% or events to get the game for free. Your welcome to make purchases or not here. You can play and enjoy the game or quit. But coming to the forums and telling people they are being manipulated and forced to spend money because they need to is something that is just in your own deluded head.

    I started playing online MMO's in '98 and this is the cheapest MMO I have played in the past decade.
     
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  11. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    I dislike the games monetisation structure but I still enjoy the game. What you all seem to misunderstand is my motivation for speaking against this kind of monetisation. It dies not overly affect me if people spend a lot of money on anything but I do not like their cash shop, if it was all cosmetic I would have no problem and I would perhaps have spent quite a lot more.
    I am putting in my opinion in the hope that if enough people do future games will not be riddled with this kind of monetisation, I also have a hope(slim) that bdo game devs could slightly modify some of their greed and put more merely cosmetic stuff into the cash shop and remove the costume melting and artisans memories.
     
  12. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    No and to paraphrase you, you do not know me or know anything about my disposable income or how much money I have spent in other games. This game is designed in a manner to make it far more likely you will go to the cash shop and spend. I never called you foolish just that I believe you are fooling yourself when you say your purchases were voluntary. If you had stated that even though you knew that the game was designed in a manner to make you need to to buy it and then did it would make more sense. To blindly say it was your choice is disingenuous, if the game did not put these roadblocks in the game you would have no need to buy anything.
    I am not delusional at all however I have a different view of life just as everyone does. My opinion is every bit as valid as your own even if you disagree with me.
     
  13. Gun_Runner

    Gun_Runner Gun_Runner 62 NA

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    Lets see... you said
    There is one contradiction right there.

    Maid outfit, no need for it in game really. I can reach a max weight in game if over 2500LT without food buffs. Considering I never am more then 6 hours afk that is more then enough weight to process anything I need in game without worry about weight limits. But I have the maid outfit, did I need it, no, I wanted it.

    Like it or not, there is nothing in the cash shop you NEED. Just a lot of conveniences many people would like to have.

    At least we do agree on one thing...

    At least I don't push my opinion on you. You can spend money here or not, you could be rich or poor, I don't really care because that does not effect me at all. That's you and that's fine.

    But here you seem to feel we are all forced to buy things we think we need. Pushing your thoughts, ideas or beliefs on others is just ignorant.

    I love eastern games like BDO but I am a western gamer and love my shortcuts too. So you can petition all you like for them to remove items from cash shop that give advantages in game... I will be right beside you petitioning for more items that give advantages.
     
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  14. WoollyWitch

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    The fooling part wasn't a contradiction, she was using two different meanings of the word fool.
     
  15. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    No saying you are fooling yourself does not mean I think you are foolish however if you want to think so I cannot stop you.
     
  16. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 61 NA

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    I was going to try out, and probably invest my time, and obviously money into a game called Tree of savior (ToS) a lil while ago....
    I looked at google, and other sites and tried to find the most ptw/ptc thing, and I couldn't, But I could feel it was there...So I went to the discussion, and review forums and came upon the typical, yadda yadda, things i could easily get over, would just pass off as initial investment, and a monthly sub at best...Till I stumbled upon this Gem of a review buried deep, yet it was recent.

    Don't have to read it, Its pretty detailed.

    https://steamcommunity.com/id/theironblood/recommended/372000/
    "Which brings me to my next point, if you’re super rich and spend money and want to just buy a high enhancement item from another player, you most likely cant because THERE AREN’T ENOUGH PLAYERS, and thus no one to sell you the gear you’re looking for. So the most logical reason for IMC is, instead of addressing the problem with the potential system, they release an ungodly amount of other systems to make the player stronger. Not only is that avoiding the fundamental problem with the game which is a SUPER easy fix, but it not only makes the game more confusing and more $$$ demanding, it also makes the game INCREDIBLY confusing for new players. So much so that I couldn’t get 4 of my friends to play this game because as soon as they entered the main town at level 10 they felt COMPLETELY OVERWHELEMED and said they’re done.

    Most games have maybe one or two systems for gear improvement, and enhancement system with scrolls or some item or a blacksmith, and maybe a system to increase skill damage. This game has the following (specifically talking end game gear): Anvil enhancement for +-ing gear for more base damage (ranges from +0 to +40, with the system reducing your gear’s potential by 1 every time you fail with gear having no more than 8-12 potential), set bonus system that has to be manually added to end game weapons by filling up some potion (which takes a LONG ass time).

    Weapons and armor have stats which are randomly obtained through magnifying glass identification and have to be rerolled with items from the p2w store, an attribute system which is a HUGE silver (silver is in game currency for ToS) to gain attribute points to increase the % damage modifiers on skills and other effects, as socket system (like RO) where gems can be added to sockets to increase damage or add other stats such as crit, magic damage etc, an awakening system (which adds a random stat to the gear).

    Also, a enchant system (which ALSO adds a random stat to the gear by using some item, and this item has tiers within itself which provide significant boost to the random stat added), a card system (like RO but completely r******* because it makes absolutely no sense) cards have to be leveled up with fodder cards, a legend card system within the card system (extremely expensive card that is very difficult to obtain in game, but easy to obtain from p2w cubes with a couple hundred dollars and is the most confusing system to try and level up the card as it does not follow the regular card level up system).

    There is also a transcendence system for gear where you use some gem item to “transcend” the gear and increase damage of the weapon based on tier level from lvl 1-10 from 10% damage increase to 100% respectively, an ichor system where you can extract the set stats (or random stats) from another piece of equipment and insert it into your end game equipment ( with a success rate of about 5% and a TON of expensive items needed PER TRY to extract), OH and guess what? They’re planning on adding a NEW system called the ARTS system which further modifies skills for classes and adds damage boosts or different effects, which ALSO requires some random items to actually make work in a completely convoluted and confusing manner.

    Did I mention many of the systems pertaining to gear reduce the gear’s potential (which is EXTREMELY valuable in the basic enhancement system that was released with the game). ON TOP OF THAT, each of these systems has its own special “p2w” item from the loot boxes that will prevent the loss of potential, or allow you to continue to do these upgrades at 0 potential (all these items are exclusive p2w items and completely UNATTAINABLE through game play. Bruh, how many systems is that? All it takes is about 2 or 3 of these systems to hit MAX damage in this game and solo end game bosses anyway."

    But that Right there was EXACTLY what I was looking for...That one review saved me Hundreds if not thousands of hours of wasted effort, grind, and money, dealing with the same BS i would have just left behind.

    I'm here because I dont want BDO to become that.
    Bad business triumphs when good customers stand idly by and silently endure, and let others become victims.

    That Game Is at least FTP, BDO is $29.99+ on Console.
     
  17. Narktember

    Narktember Narktember DarkKnight 61 NA

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    I thought that review was talking about bdo at first :( so yea... I thinks it's becoming that
     
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  18. WinterMilla

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    So if I gathered the arguments so far it boils down to, "I did, therefore, end so".

    Imma hit on a few points lightly and consider hitting them harder later, as all the counter arguments have been skin deep at best.

    1,) Why there is no straight forward gear in PS. Simple because if they had gear, people would be quicker to call them out on it. By not having gear there but rather more "rolls" people will be more willing to defend it, while also making more money then originally intended. Its a smart move really. By doing this they don't have to out right guarantee you will win anything, but your chance of winning do improve. Kinda like if you buy multiple lottery tickets and not winning. Lets say you hate gambling and just want the product, aka gear. You can still get said gear by just selling PS items on the CM and earning sliver. I mean why else did they raise the price of items on the board? Contently timed or is it contently planned.

    2) Fishing. While with the new patch players with lower inventories can enjoy fishing on limited space better, its still doesnt fix the issue. See when you fish you still use up rod durability even on fish you decide not to keep. Even more so selecting a grade of fish just ensures you get the grade you want, but doesn't give you any benefits to it (such as increased rates or increased durability). So its like getting a bag full of candy with 100 random pieces in it, but filtering out a certain kind, a hidden loss. Now if I have a branded rod that gives me 30% more durability + outfut that gives 10% durability and the buffs from what pets I can fish for longer and fast. Now comes into play with the inventory space, which is simple. If I hold more fishes than you, then I can sell them for more money than you. Even if you set it to pull only gold fish, just by shear numbers I would get more money. That's not to say we don't fish in the same spot.

    3) Just by it off the market. While this seems like a decent argument on the surface level, it starts to rot under the skin. See when you buy items off of the CM those items have to come from some were and to my knowledge the GMs haven't spawned items into the board during the course of the game. That means that the players are the ones solely supplying the market with items. Which wouldn't be a problem... in the old PS market. When I first caught wind of the market price changes, I was told that they were in place for the new cron stone prices so players wouldn't melt them or some random nonsense. But that was then and this is now. The true reason prices rose was so that players are more insensitive in buying costumes form PS. It makes you good money to sell, gives you valks cries (no one talk about this), and gives you crons stones, a very good deal don't you think? But to give them even more value, they slashed how many cron stones you needed. Which if they just reduced the amount needed and that all then they would have done a good, but no they raise the prices to 2mil. Which you would argue is the same cost as before, kinda. The point wasn't for the non spending player to get a good deal or receive help in one of the most hated systems in the game, but rather it was to promote the selling of costumes in PS. I always argued that if they simply lowered down the price of cron stones to say 500k ~ 100k they would be doing a good. I mean they wouldnt be giving you gear, but they would be making it less painful which leads me into the next point.

    4) I did, therefore, and so. The best way to make people feel more connected with their character is by making them spend more time with them, same is true with items. Lets say you grind every day for an item that has a drop rate of under .001% chance of dropping and it was a good item. Now lets say a few months later you get gear that is far better than that piece of gear, but you still don't delete it for some reason. Deep down you know that you will never use it again, but you just can't let go. Its takes you months if not years before you finally delete it but when you do you still kinda wanted to keep it. Same thing here. Because people build up an attachment to an item they are less willing to admit it flaws simply because it took a long time to get it. In BDO that would be enchanting. I mean if you have a tri yellow accessory you kinda sit on it for a while because you know getting another one is like pulling teeth, much more so if you don't have a back up or money to get it back. So when people complain about an Tet being a pain in the you know what to get, people rush to defend it saying how easy it is to get now. Although the chances of getting haven't changed one bit. I myself have gotten Tet a number of times, but still feel getting it is a pain. Sure the money we make has gotten bigger, but so did the cost of every thing. I still feel sick when I look at the % chance to get Tet at 100fs but you still dont get it, even if you started clicking from 40. I mean how high of a stack do you need to get to for it to be a 50%. Now that a lot more have gotten tet and can grind aakman/hystria they now have this long point nose saying how they can make 1bil a week from those areas easy. I mean cool, but thats a limited amount of spots that require you to have gear, that requires you to enhance. I mean sure you could fish/life skill till you get lucky enough to get one piece of of the much larger gear set you will need, but really how long does that take. I don't feel more skilled killing mobs in a circle for 1000+ hrs for a piece of gear. Funny how before the lower areas you could make decent money, but they nerfed the old spots and buff the new ones. (looking at you mediah.). Also the odd gear wall that is needed is need to make x amount. But its good as long as I have the gear to do so right? (side rant: I feel people are gonna try to bring up that -insert this- makes up for the frustrating enchantment system. Problem is that if your not already set to begin with playing catch up is a pain. Lets not even bring how X classes just destroys the lower income areas but classes that do well only in high tier content is just stuck in doing mediocre at best till they get lucky enough to get gear.)

    5) Pay 2 win. This will be short. Pay 2 win isn't a pay wall. A good pay to win system lets players still move forward, but at a much slower pace then say the guy over there dropping $100 a paycheck. When you convenience someone you have to inconvenience others or else its not very convent. If BDO said you can't reach lvl 56 without buy this item, that would be a paywall. Pay to conveniences makes game play easier, which in a game were time is literally money then it goes with out saying how it effects the end result. It gives the other player (aka spender) the ability to bypass 'flaws' in the game. Pets are a good example of this as if I can loot without stopping my forward movement that means i cover more distance than you. Yes you can still look without pets, but it takes longer to do so. This does create a problem as in a game where mob spawns are limited and a player will kill all the mobs in a certain area if your too slow (aka rotation/spot) then you would be losing money. Then adding on to the list they give each pet tiers are tied to their pick up speed, which can only be leveled up by smashing your pets together. Lets say your lucky enough that you finally get 5 teir 4 pets from CM, this still doesn't off set the already in place inconvenience. You lost both Time and money which could have been spend on getting more gear to make your time even faster. This is leaving aside the pet skills and different effects they give the players. Even when in the concept of upgrading gear, we know that the more you roll the higher the chance of you getting the upgrade is. Even when you finally catch up you will still be behind because it cost you more resources to get to that point than the next person slowing you down.

    Only 5 pages MLA format, thats me putting it lightly.
     
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  19. Maginha

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    Imagine rly playing the game instead of writing walls of text in forums how faster ppl are that spend money...
     
  20. WinterMilla

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    I don't have to imagine since I already do play the game and gave for a long while. Hows about you make a decent argument.
     

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